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Discussion about how to make Shang Ji "superior"

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by the huanglong, Mar 9, 2018.

  1. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    You can add all units with Berserk to that list.

    All units with the Berserk skill can access Assault.
     
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Ug I hate nested skills! Of course I forgot Berserk. One thing that has always irked me is that PanO knights always seemed better in CC than a faction that's known for CC!
     
  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Don't forget that everyone with Berserk also has Assault.

    Edit - Gorram page breaks.

    So, yeah.

    Nested skills need to die in a fire.

    But I do wonder about IA and CC ability. I hope to see it concentrated in certain units so it is less tax and more option.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You mean besides that the Equestarian has higher BS, higher CC*, higher Martial Arts*, and doesn't have Forward Deployment? There's an influx of HI and for most factions that means CB has to get a bit creative, but for Yu Jing's massive amount of HI there's going to be some repetitions like there is in LI or SK troop types. A Guilang doesn't step on the toes of a Zero, a Fusilier doesn't step on the toes of a Moderator, a Zhanshi is just sad, etc.

    I'd love it, by the way, if the Shang-Ji's statline was toned down on PH and ARM to save on points a bit, but BTS was left high to symbolise the "superior" nature. Possibly even bolstered up to 9. You know like "this is the next generation line armour we're prototyping for veterans and it turns out the costly problem to solve was bullets, we've solved nanotech attacks and hacking" and then design the troop to be a bit of a hacker-hunter (and to hunt Hackers you need mobility much more than firepower since hackers tend to be hard to get to rather than sturdy)

    * To me a Kanren is a specialist skirmisher and their CC ability (which is objectively worse than an Equestarian's) is an after-thought.
    So... Domaru? :tongueincheek:

    I'd be happy if the CC era of Yu Jing was closed now that JSA has seceded. It should still be a strength we should be able to play on units without CC ability, but it still shouldn't be a trump card like it is for JSA. It's just a shame that CC in this game is so poorly nuanced.
     
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  5. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Well, that's one of the core HI issues, isn't it? CB overcosts ARM, but ARM1-4 doesn't really do much. ARM5+ has a decent effect, but lower generally doesn't, so while you're correct that +ARM would make it too expensive it shouldn't.
     
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Jeez rub it in why don't ya. lol

    I wouldn't say massive because as of now we have 10 to PanO 13. with the new ones announced we will be equal. For all we know, that's it!

    I don't think we need him cheaper, just better for the points he has. For cheaper there's already the Zuyong.

    So... Yes Domaru! But not yelling crazily at the enemy to go chop them to pieces. Actually my interpretation would make him a bit like the Father Knight.

    I'm the opposite as far as CC. But that's my Kung Fu bias. It always irked me that the JSA was a bit better in CC than the rest of YJ. And Ikred me even more that PanO seemed even better than them!

    upload_2018-8-15_8-32-31.png
    upload_2018-8-15_8-32-55.png
     
  7. Space Cowboy

    Space Cowboy Member

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    I personally would love to see any buffs and alterations to the Shang Ji occur as raw stat increases.
    Exceedingly unlikely (read 0% chance) as CB’s design philosophy appears to favour the addition of skills when creating new profiles, but I think it would be a really interesting and unique design to position the Shang Ji as high end HI once again by relying on high stats rather than skills and weapon load outs.
    Think 6-4 MOV, 18 CC, 14 BS, 15 or 16 PH, 14 WIP, 4 ARM, 9 BTS, 2 W, and maintain the S2. Keep the load outs much the same as they currently are, maybe drop the rocket launcher in favour of something to better fit the CQB feel the rest of the load outs have?

    It’s a safe presumption that should they avoid getting Exrah’d, the Shang Ji’s fluff will be retconned to some degree, so why not position the armour now as the best of the best. Yu Jing’s answer to cutting edge Lhost bodies. A Heavy suit that is almost a S2 TAG.

    A man can dream.:grimacing:
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I didn't write cheaper, I wrote "save on points" :) In order to increase mobility you're going to need to spend some points.

    With more or less confirmed access to Hac Tao I also don't think a premium infantry just to have premium is necessary.
     
  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    What's your definition of Premium? I don't think of it that way if it's effective. It's not like I want Shang Ji to be on teir with Hsien, Crane or Hac Tao. I want him to stay under 40pts. if possible.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    With "premium" I essentially mean ARM 5+ BTS 6+, but there's a case to be made that 4/6 is where it starts. I'm also convinced that effective lies in supporting skills because stats are very expensive. I don't think you'll get it up to ARM 5 and still keep it under 40, but then again I can't quite get the stats of the FK to line up without a discount somewhere *looks suspiciously at Religious*
     
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  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Yes the basic FK is only 7pts more than a basic Shang Ji. They both have Kine L1, But he then has Assault, Religious, +5 CC, +1 BS, +1 ARM, Breaker Pistol, and DA CCW! That's a huge trade off for a Lt. Flamethrower! lol

    The Spitfire is only a 6pt. difference!

    Edit: AND the FK is a Veteran trooper, counting for extras in Hunting Party.
     
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  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I think that it'd be OK to bump the Shang Ji all the way up to Crane levels. They're wearing the same armor, after all.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Considering they are already very similar in stats aside from CC, do you mean bumping them up 12 points in pure CC skills so we get two servings of Crane in vanilla?
     
  14. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    I have to wonder about how much value there is in speculating the impact of new profiles in Vanilla. Just looking at TAK and Tunguska there's a fair bit of overlap in unit roles in Vanilla that were necessary to bring balance to the Sectorial.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, a) Yu Jing vanilla is in kind of a bad spot due to b) Nomads have nearly twice as many unit options as Yu Jing. Invincible Army doesn't only have to bring a new sectorial, it also has to address the problems vanilla has in lack of diversity in units that are designed to function as solo models.
    Even without those challenges, CB managed to give vanilla Nomads a fireteam...
     
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    No, not CC skills. But 8-12 points of Sensor, XVisor, and maybe built-in Deflector (or more, if that's not 8 points).
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You can toss in Grenades there (*gigglesontheinside*) and you'd land at 9 I think. Built in Deflector L2, though, I'm not sure of.

    Sensor is a bit difficult to evaluate based on the Crane, though, because the Spitfire profile seem to be paying for the same Sensor that the Multi Rifle has as otherwise the AHD profile would be unexpectedly cheap by comparison. My gut instinct tells me that Cranes, being HI, pay 3 points for their Sensor, while Zhanying being LI pays 2 for theirs, and Grenzers owing to being MI (traditionally tech intesive) pays 1. Acon Regulars just gets hit by a rounding problem (Hah! Take that you CC13 swine!).
     
  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather not be getting grenades thrown at me, thanks. :laughing:
     
  19. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    At this point, the space for a Shang Ji to exist is getting razor thin. Yu Jing has plenty of low, mid, and high cost HI and are set to get even more that will fill in a variety or roles and gaps in ways the Shang Ji could have.

    At this stage, I don't know what a 30-40 point HI can really bring to the table no matter how it is redesigned that won't either be obviated by something else, or be so efficient that it does the same to a different unit.

    I had posited it as a high-mobility specialist, but considering that I'm thinking the Xiu Ling and/or Zencha come with Climbing Plus we seem to have that covered. HI specialist? Already covered (likely) by the Hai Dao and Zencha.

    High-cost attacking piece? We have more than enough of those.

    About the only lacking element is some kind of CoC-having backliner with possible deployment zone/backline control/defence equipment (KrazyKoalas, Minelayer, or Neurocinetics). I could see that being important in IA since they have a lot of aggressive LT options and having a CoC specialized toward sitting back and not dying would be kind of cool (but likely also pretty damn expensive). But the room for the Shang Ji in IA is shrinking rapidly if they don't want it to conflict with other units on offer.

    At this point, it either needs to go the way of the bird-beak or it needs to be re-designed in such a way as to basically be a new unit type in the first place. At this point, I'd almost rather it become a footnote about the proliferation of the new, specialized regiments of Invincibles after retiring the bird beak (that is, anything that isn't a Zu Yong is part of a Shang Ji derived specialist regiment). I'm not saying that there isn't design space for new HI, but rather the blanket title of "Superior" doesn't make a ton of sense given that the new split is between the mainline Zuyong and the specialist regiments that have proliferated since CB decided the IA could support a whole sectorial.

    Turning the Shang Ji in to a background missing link between the bird-beak era and the Zuyong/Everything Else era seems like the way to go. The Zuyong was basically Yu Jing making their main armour more cost effective, while the Shang Ji ended up turning in to more specialized regiments running superior versions of their tried and tested armour designs.
     
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  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That could work, too. I mean, most people only have the one Shang Ji model, anyway. (I have 3, but that's a different discussion)