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Discussion about how to make Shang Ji "superior"

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by the huanglong, Mar 9, 2018.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm kinda on the fence. Really comes down to the fireteam options I think. If the Shang-Ji have great fireteam options that allow them to cheapen up and save some points through there I'd rather do that than make myself more susceptible to warbands and template weapons. Losing 4 Physique is a pretty huge swing.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's wrong and dirty.

    Hollowmen are super-optimized, and unfortunately I think the fact that CC is so impotent for the mildly competent units in this game is a factor that removes what should be a drawback for the Hollowmen (I'm talking about the near complete lack of CC ability, which is a major contributor to those 7 points you're talking about). A Zhanshi should be able to seriously threaten a Hollowman if the Zhanshi made it into close combat, but CC is so impotent that this isn't going to happen.
     
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  3. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    I don’t think the cost of the Shang- Ji is the problem. We don’t need more cheap HI, we need Shang- Ji to stand out from the pack.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yup. Slap a DTW on a Zuyong and I'd rather have the cheaper and over all more competent Zuyong than the Hollowman.
    Incidentally, slap a DTW on a Zuyong and you take away the one thing that makes Shang-Ji stand out.
     
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  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    No, you misunderstand me.

    As far as I can see it's 8 pts to go from PH 10 to PH 14.

    That's one of the worst deals in the entire game.

    The CC thing is a separate conversation because basically no CC and decent CC are both worthwhile options.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Ah. I'll be a bit more clear as well.

    A Shang-Ji's mediocre CC value is strongly contributing to the points cost difference to a Hollowman. The unknown is how much, if any, the 6-2 MOV contributes.

    While the CC value might not be worthwhile it's still part of the cost equation, so I don't think blaming the points on PH (which stands a higher chance of being used than CC) is correct.
     
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  7. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Note that poor PH on hollowmen also makes them really weak to glue ammo (mad traps says hello!).

    Back to the Shang-ji, everything in their profiles and load-out screams "mid field HI brawler". ISS has the crane (active turn toolbox and power-house), White banner will get the Daofeï (less toolboxy but a better gunner), so i'd say there's room for a though reactive turn HI, something you can park in the middle of the board to slow down your opponent and keep your other units out of harm's way. Think Vet Kazak, but with 2 actual wounds.

    For this purpose i think the best skill they could get is sixth sense Lvl 1, for how good it works with flamers and AHD, and how hard it can screw camos and melee skirmisher. It's probably the second best skill in the game so it's a lazy fix, on par with adding mimetism, but it has the merit to be more interesting from a tactical stand point.
    Another possibility could be mines, since the sectorial probably won't have a tons of those (i expect the few wu-mings available to be the only one carrying them).
     
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  8. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    I'd say go with Veteran. Gives SSL1/2(?) and immunity to isolation, which seems pretty fitting for a cutting-edge-equipped Veteran HI trooper.
     
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  9. REND

    REND Well-Known Member

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    It would give me pause for thought but probably not even then.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Vet Kazaks have the lovely mix of being Shang-ji price and stats, mimetism and the level of Veteran that's really damned good with the same gear except uncommon rifle and Heavy Pistol. So it's got both of your lazy fixes and a few other small upgrades :p
    it's Veteran 2 that gives Sixth Sense 2. Veteran 1 only grants LoL, isolation, and Retreat immunity.

    ---

    I think Shang-Ji needs to decide whether it be Fireteam Support or solo brawler.

    For Fireteam Support, I'd love it if they got Deflector natively, had Veteran 1 and improved WIP to 14 with profiles focusing more on support. That is to say Engineer (45pts), Doctor, KHD, AHD. I.e. make them exclusively specialist and leave the heavy weapons for Zuyong.
    Then transform the Zuyong tinbot to either a different Tinbot (Zuyong neurocinetic HMG?) and/or a Rocket Launcher and force them to link up with a Shang-Ji for Deflector.

    For Brawler. Yeah, straight up Veteran 2 and Mechanized Deployment. Self explanatory. No special fireteams and Haris at best.
     
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  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    You know what ?

    Veteran Lvl 2 really would be a good one-change patch.
     
  12. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Thing is vet L2 comes with NWI, which would most probably bumps it's cost to the stratosphere (it's one of those skills that is more expensive on HIs isn't it?).
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it'd bump the cost fairly close to Daofei, depending on if you also get deployment skills on it or not.
     
  14. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    Just give them Veteran lvl1 and SS2. Basically Veteran lvl2 without the NWI.
     
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  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Well, given the recent ruling on NWI there is NO REASON for it to cost more on HI.

    So Veteran Lvl 2 shouldn't be unreasonably expensive.
     
  16. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    Which ruling are you referring to?
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Shock makes NWI not work regardless of number of original wounds.
     
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  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I could live with that.
     
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  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to be able to dodge, jump down, and get out of Glueguns, thanks. Those were the bane of Karakuri, after all.
     
  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    So, now that we have seen more of IA and know that they are coming "soon" I think this discussion has another layer of relevance.

    Are we reading into the absence of the Shang Ji from the IA images so far?

    Do we think they might have been held back for Interplanetario?

    ...

    More on topic, looking at what we now know about IA I'm right back at "Fireteam glue and special skills" as the defining aspect of the Shang Ji.

    I'd expect them to pack a Regular Hacking Device (possibly the only option for one in IA) on one profile.

    I'd expect them to pack a Deflector Lvl 2 on one profile.

    I'd expect them to have a +1 SWC Lt profile.

    I'd expect them to have a Chain of Command profile.

    I'd expect them to have a Haris profile with "Special Haris" options pulling in other IA units.

    I'd expect them to have a Duo profile with "Special Duo" options pulling in other IA units.

    I'd expect them to have a "counts as" Special Fireteam option, with the Combi+Light Flamethrower and perhaps a Specialist Operative profile to bring something interesting into the Core Fireteam options which might otherwise be absent.
     
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