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Discussion about how to make Shang Ji "superior"

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by the huanglong, Mar 9, 2018.

  1. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    I thought this was one of the coolest figures ever made when this came out.

    The Shang Ji suit is in a bit of a bad state now. In terms of competitiveness and desirability they are a bit like Suryats, only worse. There is no lists in which they could form fire teams above duo, and even if they could they would not be great.

    The profile is in print, so whilst a change is unlikely, the restating and removal of many Japanese profiles that were printed in the same book has shown that there is a possibility to alter the profile by the time IA hits (whenever it hits).

    Shang Ji Fluff:
    "Yu Jing lead the way! Once again, the Yu Jing StateEmpire is on the cutting edge of technological development in the Human Sphere! Genius, innovation and collective struggle: these are the strength and the spearhead of the People’s Society. The best minds and the most advanced resources have taken us on the next evolutionary step in servo-enhanced protection tactics. Once more, Yu Jing has revolutionized the concept of Heavy Infantry. The fourth generation of servo-powered combat armour implies a qualitative step up in mobility and in info-biotechnological protection. These unique new Shang Jí (“Superior”) armours are faster, lighter and definitively better. Only the best equipment for the bravest defenders of the People! The core of the StateEmpire Army, those regiments of Invincibles with the best record, will receive the new Shang Jí model, creating an assault force to cover all our Great Nation’s military needs. They may be deployed by orbit, land, sea, or air to a global area of operations on short. Their primordial objective will be to lead all kind of full spectrum operations to support the policies and objectives of the StateEmpire. The invincible Shang Jí is another brilliant example of the triumph of Yu Jing and the envy of other powers. Citizen, be proud of their achievements! They are the result of the efforts of the shining society you are a part of! (...)."

    Extract of the files of Jin Ren Min (The People’s Progress), bulletin of the Ministry of Information, Yu Jing StateEmpire

    In the olden days, the technological superiority was reflected by a higher second MOV and higher BTS than other suits in it's class. At present, there are at least two other better suits of armour in the Human Sphere, the ARM 5 Hac Tao and Swiss Guard which are both also 4-4 MOV and S2. Initially I would have said buff Shang Ji to ARM 5, making it one of these high tech suits, but I believe the crane agent also wears armour of the same class and he is already ARM 4, BTS 6 so it probably shouldn't change. Higher BTS would also be over the top, especially with Yu Jing's great access to heavy infantry tinbot profiles. There is the option of adding new skills to represent the ability of the armour but again it would be silly for Crane not to get them.

    All I can think of now is BS14 and/or optimized mixed links with Yaokongs and/or Yaoxie. Both of these would cause PanO players to (rightly) have a fit though.

    Anyone got any ideas how to make them special and competitive without breaking the lore?
     
  2. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Fireteam and equipment options seem the best way. I don't think their stats really need a bump, and fluff wise they could easily just be considered a "first generation" power armour model. Giving them a variety of different equipment profiles (representing refits and upgrades made to different regiments) would give them a good role.

    Like, for eg... a profile with MSV1 and Marksman Rifle, and a profile with SMG + E/Mitter, and a profile with CoC, and a profile with Minelayer and Deployable Repeaters. Stuff like that.
     
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  3. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Nah. Remotes mixed into links will probably trickle into other armies sooner all later, it's not some kind of signature tactics that should be restricted to/first happen in PanO. Same goes for BS 14, it's the standard for our HIs, with elites getting BS 15, so BS 14 on YJ elites fits just fine (I know Shang Ji are supposed to be mainstay HI, like ORCs or Suryats, but introduction of Zuyongs forces them slightly upwards).

    I'd probably start by getting them to BS 14 and WIP 14, lowering CC to 15-16, and giving them Electric Pulse instead of Shock CCW. Then I'd look at the weapon options - Combi+LFT is a nice combo; Multi+LFT would be nice, too. I'd add Heavy Shotgun, Red Fury, maybe LGLs and D.E.P.s to the mix; it's an assault HI, it wants to advance into CQB.
     
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  4. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    With Wu Ming and Zuyong now filling the "basic" HI quotient in our lists, Shang Ji are looking for skills and equipment that set them apart from the basic models. There are a few ways we can swing this, but personally, I'd like to see them bumped up to fill another role in our "elite" HI circle.

    So what elite HI do we have and what do they do?

    • Daofei: Midfield assault and specialist roles via camo and infiltration.
    • Hac Tao: Assault, specialist, and command shennanigans via TO.
    • Hsien: Assault specialist and link point-man (in ISS) via combination of smoke and MSV2.
    • Crane Agent: Link point-man (ISS) or combo assault specialist with anti-camo tools.
    • Su-Jian: Like a TAG, but better in almost every conceivable way... :p
    • Yan Huo: Assault and defense via heavy firepower.
    Now, with JSA gone we've lost out on some of our weirder elite HI units like Karakuri and Shikami (both specialists) so that may be the way to look when engineering a new elite HI. Now, assuming that the Daofei in IA is well and truly not happening, and with our other prominent HI specialists not yet confirmed for it, we're currently looking at a major lack of mobile HI specialists in IA.

    Now, we can possibly assume the Shooting Star may help fill that role, but more options is more better!

    To that end, the Shang Ji Invincible would slot in well as a super high-tech, highly mobile specialist unit. And though I'm not quite thinking it mimic the Shikami's particular mixture, I think it's a good place to start with the concept.

    This thing should be a showcase of Yu Jing tech and ingenuity first and foremost and building on the Duo aspect might be a fun angle within the sectorial as well. I've previously advocated for it become a Crane or Hsien-like link pointman, and that can certainly work, but I think that would make it a boring inclusion for vanilla where we're already full up on link-leader HI that do the solo-assault thing if they see inclusion in vanilla. So giving us something with a role not currently filled by the known lineup of IA that also doubles as a strong vanilla piece is probably the best way to go right now (especially if it goes to fill a gap we've been left with).

    I'm thinking something with parkour-esque movement skills like the Shikami but with a more mid-range bent on its arsenal and skills (Combi Rifles, Nanopulsers, maybe built-in Panzarfausts, and high-burst support weapons like the Red Fury or Spitfire). No ODD of course, but maybe Mimetism instead. It would also be nice to see it get access to some deployables like mines, KrazyKoalas (something we have few of despite apparently inventing them), and maybe even weirder stuff. A profile with Eclipse Grenades may also be a fun way of showing off its cutting edge nature.

    Basically, make it our "toolkit" unit. Where other factions might get that in light skirmisher troops, the IA would get it in a fast-moving heavy hitter that is meant to support a front line push. Ideally, this thing would be aiming at a price point along the lines of the Hac Tao or Su-Jian. A duo with it is something you'd need to build around, but not out of the question.

    Then either make 'em all specialist operatives or forward observers (possibly by individual profile, but preferably they'd all be a specialist of some kind).
     
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  5. Stormygeddon

    Stormygeddon Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a discount in points by bringing its CC stat down from 18 to 16 (like the Daofei or Wu Ming) is what it needs. Sure, we're losing out on Yu Jing CC HI from JSA soon, but we can let the Crane Rank and to a lesser extent the Hsien or Hac Tao be the close combat HI, or give such duties to the more happy Shaolin Monks, Ninjas, and Kanren [is the Shikami staying?]. It's a shooting game, and Shang Ji have no business stabbing people with big knives when they have no Martial Arts and carry flame throwers. I think that's only a 1 point difference on the base statline though.

    Otherwise, while it does have seven types of weapon options maybe it could use an exotic one? The Daiyokai recently got the MULTI Marksman Rifle, and maybe we could match that.

    Or perhaps give it movement 6-2, making it overall not the fastest HI when sprinting, but faster(/more maneuverable) than most, and able to get around corners for its flamethrower more easily. "may be deployed by orbit, land, sea, or air" would make me think of Multi-terrain or climbing plus but it doesn't need that. Perhaps a Mechanical Deployment profile?

    I don't know, I'm just tossing ideas. To me it seems like there's nothing inherently wrong with the Shang Ji, they're just overshadowed by the more streamlined options and don't have the team support that makes things like Mobile Brigada worth fielding. I can't point to a single aspect and say "this would make it better while restricted to the fluff I know of it." And it's a shame because the model's a classic I never bought just yet.
     
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  6. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing General Political Department

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    I love the Shang Ji... its been my favourite unit since I first started playing with the models in the old starter, it taught me to rambo and then taught me exactly why that is probably a bad plan. When 'fast HI' became the rule not the exception I kept waiting for an updated profile with +2 MOV, when we transitioned to CAD sculpts all the heft granted to HI and the extra detail weren't enough to dispel an initial fearful reaction: plz CB, dont redesign that model, just... make it a little bigger?

    Writing it out, thats probably not a healthy relationship to have with a person, let alone a 28mm miniature. And yet I foolishly keep including it in lists, which suffer for it being just a 'better Zuyong', those points probably more effectively spent elsewhere. If only nostalgic sentiments had more influence on the rolls of dice.

    That context is presented because the things I want the Shang Ji to be are... unimaginative, there are lots of new and different roles it might be designed to fit but I'll probably always see it as the unit that takes point, advancing to dominate the midfield before falling in a blaze of glory. I want to see the unit be faster (@Stormygeddon 's 6-2 is exactly what I envisioned, but I could never quite square that with the idea they ought be includable in core links of Zuyong), and made more durable in some sort of high-tech way (Mimetism, because its relatively widespread across Yu Jing, ODD had been an impossible dream until we suddenly got it on the Shikami). All that is expensive, of course, which lead to thoughts of a 'bargain' Shang Ji with panzerfaust and submachinegun to accompany the combi+flamethrower, but that never seemed to fit the high-tech background of the unit.
     
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  7. Telcontar

    Telcontar Well-Known Member

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    This model, was for me also what made me start the faction and infinity. So fond of it.

    Whenever I read their fluff (which is often) the part with them being deployed by orbit always sticks with me and I want them to have some kind of skill that lets them start further ahead on the battlefield, or come in from the side. It would make them unique (possibly stepping onto the toes of the later to be released shooting stars, but hey), give them a role in the army and buff them.
     
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  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I don't want the profile to be too specialised though, as a trooper without a coat or cape it has to be generic (but better than an ORC, Brigada or Janissary).

    Mimetism would be nice, I believe it would be the game's first mimetic HI link? But mimetism goes nice with everything. I'd still prefer optimised links and a BS buff. Can afford to shave some CC and probably the shock CCW too. God forbid they use it as licence to make the model swinging a sword.
     
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  9. Telcontar

    Telcontar Well-Known Member

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    So, true. I kinda hope with JSA leaving and them becoming the close combat heavy infantry faction, we see a faction wide rebalance for Yu Jing... lower close combat values on our "standard troops" (i.e. people who do not wear a coat or cape... love that expression) and with that a reduction in price or the gain of other abilities.
     
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  10. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    IMO, the best way to give it a unique role in IA while still paying homage to it's advanced mobility is Forward Deploy or Mech Deploy.
     
  11. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The base profile is just so boring right now. Light flamethrower on most of the profiles seems to be what sets it apart from most other similar HI in YJ. I think going up to a Heavy Flamethrower and then giving it a way to heavy flame people (Mechanized Deployment or some kind of delivery system) would be cool. I'd love to see it discounted somewhat by giving it Frenzy, but I understand that doesn't fit super well fluff-wise.

    It would be a perfectly serviceable profile in pretty much any other faction, it's just that YJ is so spoiled with HI choices that you've got to be really weird to stand out.
     
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  12. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I don't think the actual armour should be the focus.

    'though Arm 4 BTS 6 w Hyperdynamics as a default would certainly make for a good "superior" armour.

    I'd prefer to see the real value come in other ways.

    Give them a Chain of Command profile and a Lt with +1 SWC.

    Give them a Haris profile which can lead other units (like, for example, the Multi-HMG Yuan Huo or a pair of Terracotta Soldiers).

    Give them interesting weapon options (Red Fury comes to mind, 'though just a Multi Sniper would also make an interesting HI).
     
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  13. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    It's the only thing that sets them apart in the lore though.
     
  14. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion Shang-Ji upgraded should be focused on mision utilty. Specialist Operative + advance deployment + umbra movement (15-5 in cm). And maybe some special haris that needs a Shang Ji. I don't know why but out of JSA i don't see a very CC focused IP ( apart of hsien that could be better).

    Rumors of IA where about a new way to give a full IP army more orders. One option was to give some expensive porfiles some kind of rule about giving 2 orders per model.
     
  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Well, no.

    The people in the armour have also been selected for that special honour.

    So it can be made as much about the wearer as the armour, with some justification.
     
  16. Warhydra

    Warhydra Well-Known Member

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    Giving them an MSV 2+spitfire/multi-MM option might work, Hsien is unlikely gonna be in IA after all.
    They are also good candidates for our HI doc or eng, they are expensive enough that they wont be auto-include in every list, which is the risk of giving such thing to the Zuyongs.

    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
  17. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Not fan of making the Shang-Ji a Hsien 2.0... if ypu want give it msv1 just as a soft upgrade but making it the smoke combo IP will be very boring on Vanilla
     
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  18. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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    Brainstorming? That's my favorite thing since my FLGS closed.

    My Yu Jing opponent never took Shang Ji unless we were playing some homebrew White Banner list. Looking at the profiles... If there's a "problem" with Shang Ji, it's the same problem with all the Knights or Locust or Ninjas (vs Dasyus!). Corvus Belli overvalues Close Combat. To my mind going from CC13 to CC18 should cost less than going from BS11 to BS12, but that's not how they price it.

    Given that, I think they should either commit to the bit and at least make them better at CC than an Ectros (a cool CC20) or else softened to open up space to fit that "light and fast" fluff. Personally I'd like to see new Core links to not get mix-and-matchy, since Army is getting a bit bloated these days, and it could be better to go the Wu Ming/Riot Grrl route and give them nice filler profiles.

    Current profiles:

    Shang Ji Invincibles
    Regular, HI
    MOV4-4 CC18 BS13 PH14 WIP13 ARM4 BTS6 W2 S2
    Equipment: -
    Special Skills: Kinematika L1 • Fireteam: Duo

    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 37)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 37)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 39)


    My rework:

    Shang Ji Invincibles
    Regular, HI
    MOV4-4 CC18 BS13 PH13 WIP13 ARM4 BTS6 W2 S2
    Equipment: -
    Special Skills: Hyperdynamics L1 • Kinematika L1 • Multiterrain

    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 35)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Boarding Shotgun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ (X-Visor) Spitfire + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 42)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ (Multispectral Visor L2, X-Visor) MULTI Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 45)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 37)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device UPGRADE: Skullbuster) Submachine Gun / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 35)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Paramedic (Medikit) Submachine Gun + (Eclipse and Normal) Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 35)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ (Forward Observer, Sensor) Submachine Gun, D-Charges / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 32)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Submachine Gun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Duo) Submachine Gun + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 33)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris) Boarding Shotgun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 35)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 35)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Lieutenant (X-Visor) Spitfire + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 42)

    You might go full Riot Grrl and give them Frenzy for -5 across the board, but I think that's bad design. HI should probably get a pip cheaper in general. I liked that Mechanized Deployment for the fluff, but that'd likely interfere with Fireteam options (see Montesas).
     
    #18 Magonus, Mar 9, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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  19. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I just don't feel like a HI with PH under 14 is a real "elite" HI.

    I hear you on the other modifications, but that's one thing I think Shang Ji deserve to keep.
     
  20. Warhydra

    Warhydra Well-Known Member

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    Well, they wont all have MSV2, just 1 or maybe 2 profile and ideally they use weapons Hsiens dont use. But hey, giving them all MSV1 would be cool too.