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Dire Foes Set 9: Datacash

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Nov 5, 2019.

  1. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    An SMMR is 2 points more than a combi, one point for the superior range and one for the shock ammo seems about right.

    A multi rifle is 4 points more and has no range advantage, though the DA and Stun ARO options are very nice.

    Spitfire is 6 points, so triple the increase, no special ammo, and probably 1 SWC on this sort of platform. Definitely a better gun, but with the opportunity cost of SWC in an already SWC hungry faction.

    I'm not sure I can agree with "Way too expensive", if it was any cheaper you'd be paying the same or less as a combi when you take the ammo type into consideration.
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    So is optional Shock and AP. Multi Rifles certainly aren't great either - at least next to Viral Combis.

    13 points up from a Fusilier.
    +1BTS +1ARM +1BS +MSV1 +1WIP +FO +Shock MMR
    1+2+3+2+1+1+3 if I counted that correctly.
    Combi Rifles are remarkably unimpressive weapons relative to SMGs and Spitfires at -5 +6 below and above them.
    Considering how little you lose for -5 (Rangebands, but gain 2 Ammo types),
    and how much you gain for +6 (Rangebands, DAM, B),
    Just getting a different (not even improved like a Sniper) set of Rangebands is a true shame. MMRs as they are would be interesting as free upgrades. Otherwise they either need Sniper class positive Rangebands (24" of +3 so in this case from 8-32"), DAM, B or something else like MMSLX built in.
    Otherwise MMRs would be fun as flavour weapons to round out a toolbox kit. However there isn't anything here to round out, just FO.

    Considering he's a FO, any sort of Shotgun, Assault Pistols or SMGs would have resulted in a very nice, very useable and yet still fairly vanilla and not gamebreaking Profile. Imagine a twin SMG X-Visor guy or Breaker MMR MMS2 for a second. That's what you can pull off by just adding compatible stuff to a fairly bland Profile, not saying that's what he should have been, but at this point I'd literally take anything else than him and Bipandra.
    There's like 20 great Dire Foes in the game, PanO just happens to get all the duds.
    Which is fine, the Faction works without them, oh well.
     
    #162 Teslarod, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    How is it not an improved rangeband? 8-24" covers roughly twice the area of 0-16".
     
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  4. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Sometimes, I wish I could understand you @Teslarod. You can't stop to complain about how bad stuff like +1 PH and +1 CC is bad as a design thing for our Spec Ops. This time, CB didn't do it. Instead we have a straight improvement in useful stuff. You may not like ARM and BTS upgrades but they are really useful and it's not like he was going straight up to 3 ARM and make you really cringy. He has strictly a better gun than a fusilier (for 2 points more, oh my god!), better aim (something I remember you found disgusting it was not the case for our two previous Indigos), has a role both as a specialist and as a camo hunter. You want a Viral Combi? Outside of the fact that's really not a PanO ammo, it costs 6 freaking points over a combi. For what? You won't even use this gun in the first place because both in NCA and VIRD, you'll have a BF for this or you'll try to kill the target with a Kamau because "Mimetism is all". X-Visor and double SMG? Let me laugh! He would be about the price he is now and just bad at fighting because +0 MOD can't compare with +3 MOD. It's even more relevant since it appears that your meta is full of cheap targets with no armour but full of Mimetism/Camouflage.
    Then MML2 and Breaker MMR... of course... in your dreams maybe but in a game where balance is something that still exists, I don't think so.
     
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  5. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member

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    It's kinda sad that Mike pretty much hit it right on the head. Just a big, "yeah we figured, oh he has msv1 how nice."

    Overall a nice package. Wip 13 specialist for fusiliers to go with Bipandra. Hes got some kick in a link and is reasonable outside. I kinda like the idea of him in an aggressive fusi-kamau link to provide support against mods. Theres str9ng msv arguments in NCA right now for links with Aquilla and BF and hes kinda a third option depending on what you want.
     
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  6. Cadmo

    Cadmo Well-Known Member

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    Hey! In my opinion is a situational but a good choice for PanO, in particular for Varuna.

    Despite VIRD have an incredible good platform for MSV2 is the only one, so we don't have a camo hunter or a support for ZC sensors to attack camo spam armies, now Quinn could have this role. He doesn't have X-visor but could be linked.

    Also he adds a new gun for fusiliers with special ammo. In a fireteam paired with a kamau HMG could be a nice option to move your fireteam to capture and/or protect objectives or zones in second or third turn covering different lines of fire (adding a decent mid range weapon for 0 SWC) .

    And finally there are some missions that needs a Liaison officer and for Varuna this role is not very easy to find, we have only Patsy, pretty expensive, and Fusilier which is a very simple profile, so in that role Quinn again could be a nice option.
     
    #166 Cadmo, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  7. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    ZuluC FO can be the Liaison and gets to keep his marker state. pretty solid choice.

    MSV1 definitely has more use in Varuna, but ultimately being twice the cost of a fusi is probably why I won't take him.
     
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  8. Cadmo

    Cadmo Well-Known Member

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    Yes, ZC is a good choice but I think part of Varuna's strength is in his camouflage, by marking one as a liaison officer you lose the surprise factor in one of them, that is something that I prevent.. but it's certainly a good choice.

    Is expensive like all indigos, but in Pano I never saw a MSV profile cheaper (less than 20 points) and is a fusi but shoots like a Kamau or Bolt and has beter BTS and ARM than a fusilier. I think Quinn could have more than one useful role and for me that is fine.
     
    #168 Cadmo, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  9. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    As I suspected, hes very meh. MSV 1 without Mimetism just leaves him rather fragile in FTF. Hes still better than Bipandra but lol, thats not saying much.

    *looks at what nomads got

    Damn, see now sensor makes her very much worth taking.
     
    #169 Death, Jan 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  10. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    lol, nomad players are saying she's a pile of junk and we're the ones that lucked out.....

    .....something something about grass being greener somewhere else.....
     
  11. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member

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    The biggest complaints seen against her is that she makes the Grenzer sensor obsolete and that some of her kit is redundant. Our fusilier was fairly predictable while the securitate wound up with a bunch of oddball kit. The more I think about the fusilier, the more I like him in his role.
     
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  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    You know what would be perfect? If we would simply switch them between factions. This way both factions would get something more unique, not competing with other choices.
     
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  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I don't understand. She IS a pile of junk... That changes nothing on how powerful Nomads is though.
     
  14. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    I really find your Nomads hate amusing. It's like my Aleph hate :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
     
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  15. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Rao is just looking on, sad :D
     
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  16. Modock

    Modock Well-Known Member

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    I would exchage the profiles in a blink of an eye.
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Did you even read what you're responding to?
    I never asked for Viral Combis, Breaker MMR +MMS L2 or Dual SMG X-Visors (in fact I remember spelling out that that's not what I want on him). They're just mechanically better weapons relative to what your points can buy. Period. Pretty sure I don't want any any of those options on a Profile that clocks in at less than 50 points, they really should come with a utility cost tied to an expensive Platform - like Multi HMGs and HRMCs can't be found on LI.
    Still f you don't get how a Core Linked MSV1 BS13 Viral Combi would be worth a few extra points, you're missing something crucial. Mimetism/Camo isn't everything, it's simply a matter of how many targets have MSVs and Mimetism themselves - which just generally ends up in Mimetism's favour. MSV1s are nice to have with a proper SWC gun, i.e. a Spitfire.
    Might have missed the -3 Rangebands on that Marksmanrifle as well....
    The overal area covered by it's +3 bubble is bigger than a Combi and that's an important part why SWC Weapons like Spitfires and HMGs are upgrades over Rifles.
    But that's forgetting about them having extra B and DAM, resulting in 40-50% more damage caused on average. A MSV1 BS13 wit DAM13 will still bounce off ARM1 targets in cover fairly often. It's not order efficient to use him for shooting over a Fusilier/Kamau HMG. Which in turn leads to him getting replaced by exactly that and some other Specialist in the Link.
    Now if the guy had Sensor he could Discover+Shoot at +9 in a Link as well as Sensor sweep the normal way. That would be great utility and Order efficient, Also allows him to bail out allies from CC. Sensor is a terrific Skill for what it does, same as the aforementioned gun upgrades.
    Adding utility to his Link is an easy way to make a Dire Foe great. A simple Panzerfaust would have gone a long way, or Dogged, or Mines, heck I'd have been happy if he had kept the deployable Repeater Fusilier FO's get.
    It really doesn't take that much to make something useful, just about anything on top of a mediocre gun and a generic Specialist Skill usually does the trick.
     
  18. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Yes, you say it wasn't what you wanted him to be but this sounded to me like something you would gladly loved to have. My bad if I overinterpreted but you sounded like you wishing it. However, the rest is really weird too. Sensor : VIRD and NCA already have access to this thing on troopers better than what could be a PanO Indigo with the Deva and the Zulu Cobra. Yes, you have no FT but if everything comes handy without some choices somewhere, where is the fun? ISS, ASA and TJC have Sensor in their FT but this comes with some cost as well.
    FO with BSG or SMG? Already exists with SMG in VIRD. Not in NCA, though, but the Deva has a Nanopulser with it and Auxilia has the Auxbot.

    I wonder if what you ask for an Indigo is:
    - Not in the scope of what you should expect from a guy coming from the Fusiliers and from VIRD/NCA
    - Just another troop that already exists in PanO, just cheaper and/or linkable so you can free some slots elsewhere by taking this guy

    But maybe I'm wrong and I would really understand what you wanted him to be.

    If you wanted an excellent CQB fighter, you were expecting something impossible. CQB is one of the thing VIRD doesn't do very well without ORCs and CB won't change it.
    If you wanted exotic ammo, well you have Swanson for this. You shouldn't expect something as crazy as Viral ammo in PanO (outside of mercs, of course). Mines aren't something VIRD and NCA are fond of (its something that was left mostly for ASA).
    I think that he is as crazy as possible while still being in the limitation of the unit he is from and the limitations of his sectorials. Just like Kovac is in line with what Tunguska already does.

    About Koni and Bipandra, there is really room for discussion, as there are here and there some weights that could have been lost but Quinn is already rather optimised. Not in what you wanted but he still has a rather lean profile and you know what you can do with him.
     
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Hahaha! Well, it’s not even because I’m on the receiving end, it’s just that every time I field that faction, I feel so disgusting and borderline cheating. The stuff that nomads have gained access to in last releases have been genuinely insane to me. :sob::joy:
     
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  20. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    That's really funny, because I always feel about Aleph the exact same way. Every trooper and their dog has NWI, they have the most ODD-Troopers ... gear Nomads invented. And both are not properly costed. At least I feel this way. If NWI would be properly costed, it would make no sense to give IA lots of 1W-HI with NWI and Immunities.

    And while I find that Nomads are really flexible I don't see anything OP or insane in it. Yes there are some strong pieces, but other factions have even stronger pieces. Nomads still have to rely on tricks so ... well.

    But it's funny that often someone has a faction he really despises. And everyone has another faction to despise :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: