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Dire Foes 9

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Solar, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. SpectralOwl

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    Honestly most of what it would take to rein in Nomad HI onto the current curve where everyone gets useful options would be the two widely requested changes of cheaper ARM and removing Frenzy, plus taking away the Hollow Man Religious Troop discount they have for no reason. This would be a minor price hike for Hollows and Riots while making Brigada and Taskmasters cheaper, as well as making most other HI teams a little more affordable for everyone else. The major problem at present for HI Cores is cost, all that is needed there is to bring cost in line with performance for all HI instead of relying on useless discount skills to make a select few worthwhile. I've got no problem with Nomad HI being useful, as long as they follow the fluffy Nomad doctrine, and most of them do.

    Kriza's a bit different because it matches PanO and Yu Jing for elite shooting, both of which give up a lot for this capability in their design which the Nomads don't, and lacks both major taxes or Nomad design flavour. It really does need a nerfing in straight-up gunfighting for external balance's sake, possibly trading it for some nice E/Maulers to be even better as a defender in suppressive or Decoy for protection and ARO threat.
     
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  2. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    From reading a lot of your posts it seems most of you are talking from a vanilla prospective. I think it’s important to remember that these units were not designed with vanilla in mind, but in respect to their sectorial. So what may seem too strong backed by every tool under the sun is just good in the sectorial. Weakening the unit will only hurt the sectorial. What needs to happen is that the game needs to move away from vanilla soup lists and bring more rewards for playing the sectorials and limiting your options.
     
  3. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    I don't think the Kriza was designed specifically for Tunguska. It's in Tunguska, but I don't think it was a product of that Sectorial's design process. The KB, like the Spetsnaz, Tarik, etc launched as a Vanilla release that was designed to provide link team-levels of firepower in a Vanilla-friendly choice. If you look at the KB, this is literally true, since the "modify 3-points-of-BS and +1 Burst" basically mimics the bonuses of a 5-man fireteam. It was designed to provide the same level of firepower as 5 guys all working together.

    The issue being brought up in this thread is that Nomads, traditionally, were designed to be strong in other areas so that they wouldn't need this kind of face-smashing active-turn strength in order to be effective. It may not be a bad thing... And I'm not sure it's "overpowered", necessarily... But it's a huge departure from what Nomads typically receives, and it's just as good, possibly better*, than similar units from other armies.

    *Comparing to the Swiss Guard, but the Kriza's almost two Regular Orders cheaper in cost, is significant more deadly at other rangebands thanks to the pistol, isn't bothered at all whether it's shooting at Visors or non-Visors, and performs better for Vanilla Nomads than the Swiss performs for Vanilla PanO. The Kriza's a great unit, particularly for its cost, and especially when you consider the very cool tactical versatility of Nomads as a whole.
     
  4. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    It's also important to remember that the Kriza came out in the "Beyond" boxes, which were developed and released well before Tunguska came out.
     
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  5. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    I would argue that the Kriza does fit in the Tunguska sectorial design. Where as Bakunin is sketchy illegal tech and bio-mods, And Corregidor is workforce mercenary, Tunguska is pure elite. So the Kriza is designed as a pure elite shooter, way more advanced than anything else when it comes to shooting, because that’s Tunguska. The interventer is the best at hacking, clockmaker is the best at engineering. Hollowmen are the best at being defensive. Kriza are Best at being offensive. It’s a faction of the best money can buy and has always been designed that way.
     
  6. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    Am I taking crazy pills here? Beyond ice storm came out at gencon 2017. That same gencon, they previewed the dossiers for TJC. TJC came out in June 2018. That’s some time, sure, but TJC has to have been well into development when the Kriza was released.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    There's a big difference between saying:
    "Kriza are OP" and
    "Kriza distort Nomads/TJC"

    The first is a general statement about power, the second is a statement about contextual impacts.

    This BTW is why nobody complains about the Soggie Feurbach. In Vanilla CA it's playable but when you have Sheskin and all the aspects, it's not nearly the scariest thing out there. And in Morats... well it's Morats.

    Whereas in Nomads it feels out of place and is unnecessary. If instead we'd received a HI that could benefit from Supportware I don't think anyone would be complaining: it'd hit roughly the same peak power and cost as the Kriza, but would be limited and tied into our faction strengths.

    Look at TJC, it's a very limited and tightly designed faction. There just aren't that many list archetypes that are actually good (I'm at 3). I suspect part of the reason this is true is to prevent run away list building synergies with Hollowmen or Kriza. This (and the fact that Grenzer cores are just badly designed) makes if that much harder to run MI based lists. That is I'm suggesting that TJC was designed around Kriza and Hollowmen just as much as they were designed for TJC. Which has been my central point all along: there's an opportunity cost to having good HI, and we're seeing it impact our MI options.
     
  8. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Correct, as a Rambo platform the HMG Kriza (and a lot of HMG platforms) aren't that great as they very quickly end up in range bands where the weapon is just a detriment, and it is far more likely to get surrounded and taken down fairly trivially (which is why the TM is arguably a better assault piece).


    One of the things when it comes to HI is the asymmetrical tools (like hacking primarily) that can be leveraged against it and a lot of other factions have difficulty bringing the necessary support to protect them in the form of KHDs and ways to project that threat. We on the other hand have trivial access to defensive tools like Koalas and minelayer to protect them from enemy attack vectors as well as some of the best hacking/repeater support in the game to protect them, meaning you have to engage them on their terms for the most part.

    While other factions may have better HI Links they tend to be unable to support them as effectively, for example the two HI focused sectorials IA and MO, only have 1 relatively expensive KHD platform each, neither of which have a marker state (holo doesn't count) or infiltration and little to access to repeaters leaving them exposed and at the mercy of Bandits, Zeros, Hecklers, Spektrs, Mary and Interventors (especially when coordinated) which will quickly strip that army of it's Info War protection and leaving them vulnerable to a single AHD ruining their day.
    Us on the other hand have access to at least 2 Camo Infiltrating KHD platforms in each sectorial, plus repeater/pitcher/fast pandas and Tinbots gives us a massive edge in protecting them.

    So by removing options to deal with them it can increase the perceived power level HI teams in comparison to their peers in other factions.
     
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  9. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Also on the topic of our MI, I really wish the Moiras had a haris option or go in a custodier haris, it would make list building so much better in BJC.
     
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Observance Core, Haris

    Kusanagi, Moiras, Custodiers, Healers count as Observance for Fireteam composition.

    Simple and clear.

    (I'd also add White Noise as an Upgrade to Custodier AHDs but that's kinda a separate thing)
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This. It's why I prefer Lizzie to Squalos. It's the feel I want for our HI cores. I think where Grrls is at now actually does that (their issue is how they overshadow most other ways of playing Bakunin); the same is probably true of Hollowmen (I don't think they're actually OP, just very well optimised).

    The design I'd like to see for our sectorials is:

    You don't play Nomad HI cores because they're the best, but because of how well they're supported. They shine in particular missions.

    You do play Nomad MI cores because they're generally strong. They're good in the majority of missions.

    You play Nomad LI/WB cores to provide a base for our great solo options. This is also good in a variety of missions but primarily order intensive ones.
     
  12. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    MI in general are just boned by ARM 2-3 and BTS 2-6 costs on single wound models being too high. On top of that they typically have a lot of skills/equipment to make them viable over LI or HI; which also increases their cost even more when cost is the core problem with them. FD1 is an ITS bandaid and doesn't apply a fix to balance out the cost equally on MI.

    IMO this is true just for all MI, not just Nomads.
     
    #212 jfunkd, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Though one thing that hasn't really been touched is that our solo operator MI (Custodier, Hellcat, Intruder, Kusanagi) are still above the curve for most MI.

    The Prowler has taken a little bit of a hit lately with more missions having EZs, FD1 on MI and less focus on just pressing buttons in favour of classified based missions, most of the time it loses out to the intruder during list construction.

    The Sin Eater, while a very solid piece especially with FD1 which makes the MK12 or spitfire profile more usable, is easily countered these days as people need to deal with far more deadly ARO threats.

    As an aside I do think that Wildcats are for the most part passable and really only suffer from old SWC costs. I would also like MI to take on more of a toolbox design space over their LI counterparts.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Custodiers are WELL below the curve. Seriously, if they weren't necessary in certain Bakunin builds I'd never run them.

    Hellcats are average as AD MI go. They regularly lose fights to core-linked Fusis (unless you manage to strip cover), let alone Helots or similar. AD5 seems cool, but even if you get the benefit you're left with a BS12 4-2 Move trooper in your DZ: just make it +3 to the AD roll and allow all AD to deploy anywhere in the DZ if it fails the jump already.

    Kusanagi gets boned by the increased prevalence of Shock and a 3 SWC Spitfire Profile (the amount of times I've going from 5/7 SWC to 7/6 SWC swapping her profiles... *sigh*). She's only really usable in the Haris (and increasingly that's threatened by KHDs and SSL2 MSV Cores).

    Intruders are still good, but they're no longer as useful as they used to be. The prevalence of SSL2 Shock/MSV and the existence of the Kriza has displaced them as the premier door-opener (early game ARO clearer to enable you to leave your DZ).

    Prowlers are a joke. They're one of the units that got me into Bakunin, but seriously hot mess does not begin to describe them. How they didn't get a discount when Bolts did IDK. Buff the fuck out of them and make them AVA1 in Vanilla: I honestly would prefer Locusts to what we have now.

    I can't remember the last time I played a solo-Moira in a door-opener HMG role. It'll probably still work, but you're one SMG Shock crit or LRL crit away from being useless.

    I still love Sin-Eaters but increasingly I find that they're going 1 or 2 ways: die to shock early, or I play an opponent who wasn't ready for them and they clean up. So I like them, but they're hardly a unit that's common it's more "oh you want to run a Sin-Eater, it's completely viable here's how make it work."

    It's possible to play a top tier Nomad list in any sub-faction without a single MI. Indeed most of the most optimised Nomad lists run few if any MI.*

    Even with REMs, the biggest resurgence I've seen in their use is from CJC Tsyklon/Alg Cores which provide an excellent reason to run REM heavy. This design is EXCELLENT! I love it. Putting down 2 Tsyklons supported by a Clockmaker to provide the primary attack power of a combat group feels like a Nomad list. And it's a gateway to more REMs (you already have the hackers and engineers may as well double down!). I merely regret that Wildcats weren't used as the basis of it instead of MB.

    Otherwise, on the REM front you're mainly looking at a single Reaction + 2 x Transductors and 1-2 Salyuts for the cheap secondary attack option / ARO unit and cheap orders. Z&P and J&B also make a common appearance (albeit they're much more limited in applicability than our generic REMs) but Lunokods and Tsyklons are MUCH rarer.*

    * Hanging out for the Interplanetary lists so that I have more evidence than "look at most lists recommended on Nomad FB or in this sub-forum".
     
  15. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    I dont see medium infantry getting better until the Heavy/Light infantry link teams go away. This is part of why I have always been against mixed units. Light infantry are not supposed to be workhorses. Thats the job of medium infanty. Medium infantry as supposed to be the option you chose when you want to get stuff done. But when they implemented the Heavy elite shooters in the super cheap light order monkey links, it bypassed the role medium infantry were supposed to play. The light infantry were supposed to be utility, you had all the specialists, the forward observed and the hackers and the paramedics, for cheap. They weren't the best but you could fill out a role you needed without paying a lot.
     
  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Reducing the amount of shock and toning down the damage of DTWs (preferably to 11) and replacing the Chain rifle with the chain colt, and reducing how many disposable models carry it (I really hope warbands get severely kicked in the head during the addition change) would go a long way to helping the survivibility of MI.

    While Fireteams do screw the Intruder, thanks to koalas, a little smoke and coordinated orders it can put down enemy fireteam shooters with less risk than the kriza. while being roughly a Jaguar cheaper.

    Up until the Heckler dropped and the ITS MI change hit I used Prowlers frequently as a secondary attacker from an off angle, now it normally loses out to the Intruder or either the KHD or Red Fury Heckler.
     
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  17. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    A Bandit Combi still has 12 BS and gives you access to CC and deployable repeaters. Just sayin.
     
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  18. Sicaris

    Sicaris Member

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    Just curious, how do you use the koalas as part of your strategy for dealing with fireteams?
     
  19. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Interesting idea - buffing MI by reducing the availability of LI (and HI) specialists.
    And maybe reduce LIs' WIP by 1 or 2 points to make them worse Specialist choices in general.
     
  20. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    1 drop smoke
    2. Do a coordinated order with your intruder and a massasi
    3. Intruder gains lof while staying in smoke, koala walks into the open forcing your target to aro
    4. Target is forced to act against the koala or dodge because the intruder has not yet triggered an aro
    5. Intruder declares attack and get a normal roll or opposed v a dodge.

    Repeat till dead, and substitute white noise and an attack piece without a visor as appropriate for other targets with msv.