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Dire Foes 9

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Solar, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    I like this. Because: Sometimes a hammer can be "the right tool to the right Job."

    This justifies the existence of a Kriza in Nomads. Great. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Grrls + Moderators I don't like from a fluff POV. Which is why I'd go Tsyklons. The mix or STR + Wounds probably makes up for the low SWC weapons in the link.
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    We already have 3 hammers: Salzy, Lizzie and Iggy. :)
     
  4. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    All 3 TAGs, maybe sometimes a smaller hammer is needed.

    Right tool, right Job, you know :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
    The perfect hammer for the Job.
     
    #184 Spitfire_TheCat, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  5. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Na, this is not my cup of tea. If you like it, fine. If you find it interesting, again, fine. I don't. Mixed LI-HI-Teams can't be the solution.

    (and I'd like to edit: For me LI-HI-Links are just a way of Min-Maxing)
     
    #185 Spitfire_TheCat, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  6. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Okay, good point. These are a much better match for the points value of Grrls too. Adding Tsyklons and other fairly pricey REMs also avoids the bargain-basement-cost-discount thing that mixed HI/LI links have.
     
  7. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn’t really feel like Riot Grrls and remotes is fluffy either. Ultra-violent feminazis frenzying and charging head first into combat don’t really seem like the type to bring remotes. I think morlocks (female versions of course for fluff) would make more sense. Let them bring 0-2 morlocks in the link, making them regular. Then they can all charge head long into combat together. Smoke from morlocks with their msv 1 makes a lot of sense game wise as well as fluff wise. Best of all it would free up 50 pts you can spend elsewhere on your list making it more robust.
     
  8. Ugin

    Ugin HECKLE

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    It is small in size, but sometimes better than other hammers, like when you face a Kamau Sniper in a core fireteam.

    So I agree with inane's point. KB somewhat blurred Nomads faction style I think. It feels like KB is unnecessarily powerful sometimes, and it doesn't feel like I'm wielding a right tool for the right occasion. And I would be happy even if KB gets nerfed, if the purpose is to make Nomads more stylish.

    I mean, I like the concept of Nomads when it is 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. KB, is the master of shoot-to-kill I suppose.

    And @Janzerker , I have to agree with @jfunkd . I don't think Nomads should get more, and the spread of HIs wouldn't be necessary, but are HI Fireteams stupidly optimised and broken in rules? Nah, maybe that's too much.
     
    #188 Ugin, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  9. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    You make a good point about remotes. But remember that these charging badass ladies also take the time to strap themselves into armor etc. And they're still Nomads, so a mixed and tech-heavy approach might still make sense.

    Maybe a more belligerent/CQB remote companion would be appropriate: something like a Lunakhod? That would definitely be a buff rather than a step sideways though, with the Koalas. A koala-less Lunakhod, maybe packing something else useful instead. Maybe the Akrylat-kannon version with no koalas?

    Morlocks do sound appealing fluffwise, but that massive pricebreak for filler bodies moves the unit even more towards over-optimization. What is needed is a lateral move to include a utility member that's thematic, not just LI for the sake of making them less expensive (and gaining smoke!).
     
  10. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Again, I think Nomads is the only faction begging to nerf their own units.

    And no, Kriza is not the master of shoot-to-kill. First it's just the right hammer against a Kamau sniper and comparable threats. But against other threats it's not so optimal. There a TO HI (or Intruder) would be better. Second, Kriza is not the only unit working against a Kamau, there are others as well.

    Is the Kriza in every Vanilla Nomads List? Is it even in the majority of lists? If the answer is no, it's not broken. And if it's not broken, don't fix it.

    But okay, if you want a nerf, maybe CB will hear you: "Hey, please nerf our HI's. They are too good for what Nomads Players expect. Take them away!"
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  11. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Yeah, you're not playing Krizas (or against them) enough if you think they're not the hammer to at least 2/3rds of the nails out there. They are definitely the master of shoot-to-kill for an independent big-gun unit. A B5 HMG with an inherent -3 to return fire is really, really nasty. When it can also solve the Nomads' constant leadership problem for free, that's probably too much in one unit.

    Maybe we don't need to nerf Krizas themselves, but lowering the overall power aor presence of HI in Nomads seems like a good balancing measure vs other armies, as well as returning us to the fluff a bit.

    And yeah, Nomad players widely saying our HI are overpowered/overdistributed compared to our other troops is definitely unique. It is also a good indicator that there is in fact a problem. It's in at least half of my competitive vanilla lists. It definitely feels like a crutch.
     
  12. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    First, that's Bull. Because it's not different from a Swissguard.
    BS13, B5, -3 to enemy vs. BS15, B4, -6 to enemy, plus Marker State.
    Or take the Omega if you want a lower priced unit:
    BS13, B5, -3 to enemy vs. BS14, B4, -6 to enemy

    If the Kriza is the hammer to 2/3 of the nails out there, the Swiss Guard is the hammer to 90% or the Nails. Just not the linked Kamau sniper, but that's it.

    Second, what constant Leadership Problem? Kriza Ltd? I don't like Rambo Ltd, but you can play what you want. And I never felt a Leadership Problem.

    That's just ridiculous. Fixing HI's in sectorials that are not considered top- or even mid-tier.
    And if you play HI in your Vanilla Lists, maybe that's your playstyle. But in my Nomads Vanilla Lists, during at least the last year ... there was not a single HI.
    I have to correct that, I think I once played a Taskmaster, that just stood there and did nothing while the rest of the army did all the work.

    OTOH, why am I arguing. I don't play HI ... Take them away. I don't need them at all. Take them, so the whining stops.
     
  13. Ugin

    Ugin HECKLE

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    I apologize, I was a bit biased to just say KB is the master of such. I should've said that "I think KB is most likely the one who's close to 'The master of shoot-to-kill'". And also I did some calculation with the dice calculating website(http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/), you were right about the Kamau point, maybe I was over-simplifying about every cases.

    But still, my point is very much the same. There are, yes, better tools for some cases than KB, but still he(or she) is rather universally compatible with a lot of gunfight situations. That's why I thought KB is (almost) the master of shoot-to-kill. I beg your generosity for that I can't do all the calculations of KB facing every other units, and make statistics to show you.

    Neither of my local Nomads brothers, always put KB in their Vanilla lists, but it's simply because they think about accomplishing objectives more than shooting and killing. If that's your point(Infinity is not about just killing), I can agree with that.
     
  14. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    We don't have a Swiss Guard. We have a Kriza. That's why it gets used for basically everything in vanilla, unless you're using an Intruder for more specific situations with camo or smoke.

    This is a discussion about Nomads, not about what units are great across the entire game.

    Kriza HMG Lt isn't a Rambo. Most people use it at range to eliminate ARO units or pieces that have advanced into the midfield and been caught out, with fairly low risk. You might Rambo with it on Turn 3.

    Not sure what planet your meta is on mate, but vanilla Nomads are definitely top-tier.

    That's a Taskmaster. They're fun but not super optimized. Krizas are, for a role that Nomads used to be pretty slim on as an intentional flaw. That's what everyone has been saying in this thread.

    No one's whining here. We're players of this faction who are saying that our faction has stepped outside the design space it probably should be occupying, and that in a nod to fairness for other factions (and a return to a characterful playstyle) the availability or configuration of full HI core links should probably change.

    And the fact that you don't play HI is pretty evident. You should probably listen to those who do. I'm a StarCo player besides Nomads, and I have definitely abused the living crap out of the Grrls/Emily link to let me face some pretty amazing players at Interplanetario and elsewhere and largely keep my teeth. I'm not that great a player, and the unit is definitely a crutch.

    Grrls in Bakunin are similar, and Hollowmen are in the almost-broken range of optimization. That's what we're all saying and you seem to not be hearing.
     
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  15. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I really love a lot of Nomad HI and I like to take them in vanilla.

    Yeah, the kriza is a good hammer, the riot grrl spitfire is also a great budget hitter that I take.

    I really like the task master red fury, he's an excellent data tracker, and if you go the lt route he's makes good use of the extra order, though with a risk.... Somewhat mitigated by his koalas.

    The riot grrl ML can really dominate a lane if there is any saturation zones in your local meta, try it...

    The hollowmen have a lot of profiles that make good use of super jump, even when solo.

    The only HI I don't regularly take in vanilla are the plain Jane brigada. They don't bring my any useful utility other than a second wound, and IMO useful utility is really what Nomads are about.

    I know at one point in time it really was Nomads are the MI faction, Pano was the tag faction, Ariadna was thevWB faction, Haq was the LI faction etc.

    I'm pretty glad that rigid construction had somewhat fallen away. All those unit classifications really have no, or in ITS very little, in game effect. It's more meaningful to me to play a utility faction than to play a MI faction.

    I agree that kriza certainly come to that line of being too powerful in the shooting department. I'm not sure if I would agree that they cross it. Units like Swiss, Hsien, Hac Tao, etc, can regularly engage in more favorable fire fights than a kriza using mods, though they are also countered by visors unlike kriza. (The hac Tao and swiss are also significantly more protected by hidden deployment and marker state, for a price increase).

    Anyway, I really like the eclectic stable of Nomad HI and Tags, they mostly, have twists that to me feel very much in line with the Scrappy Nomad mentality around technology. I certainly would welcome a revisit of our MI with an eye towards making them more appealing, but that doesn't mean that the HI are bad, the MI just don't appear to have been given the thought around design space that other tools have been given.
     
  16. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    All good points @natetehaggresar . And it's not in vanilla that HI are an issue (even the Kriza, which as you point out is just shy of broken, it's just the context that makes him an auto-take unless there's an Intruder or TAG in your list).

    It's the full core HI links where things are getting out of balance. And even there, all that would be needed is to either limit those killer HI to Haris, or to require some other stuff in the links that makes them more eclectic but also a bit more fragile. Like making the Hollowmen -have- to take that Stempler FTO rather than just have the option, or requiring an EVO around to field them, or making Grrls take the Akrylat-kannone Lunahod sans koalas, or something like that.
     
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  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I don't think the this debate centers around "what's the best shooter."

    Certainly there are better shooters than the Kriza.

    But the Swiss is a hammer in an army built for hammering.

    And while the Kriza isn't shooting like the Swiss, it's also quite a bit cheaper (nearly two Regular Orders worth) and even the HMG loadout is actually quite dominant at close-range too. I

    I think a lot of the comments centering around Heavy Infantry isn't that "Nomad and its Sectorials should be nerfed."

    It's more along the lines of "how did Nomads get the best Heavy Infantry link teams, when that's not a key component of the faction identity."

    Hand in hand with that is the question of "why do Nomads have to crutch on good Heavy Infantry, when they should be strong in other areas instead."

    Make no mistake, Hollowmen and Riot Grrrls are stellar links. Their mixed capability and cheap cost set the curve for Heavy Infantry. Yes, you could put together something like an MO Crusader team, but that's a link that's painfully expensive by comparison Now only are Hollowmen and Riot Grrrls decent in a vacuum, but they can also form a part of ITS-viable lists.

    Virtually noone fields full Heavy Infantry Core teams for the purposes of generic mission play, but Nomads can.

    I believe the question being asked here is "why is that" and "does HI really feel like the tool that Nomads should be depending on."
     
  18. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    I would simply turn that around and ask why can't other factions get useful HI links too? What would it take for you to want to take an orc core? You probably wouldn't for the same reason I don't really like a brigada core. What would you like to see in Pano to satisfy you?

    I think it's really dumb to have options like HI cores that are useless. (Or ad LTs so you can start in LoL for that matter).

    @Savnock fwiw all my vanilla lists used to include an intruder HMG or MSR, now they include an intruder HMG or MSR and/or a Kriza HMG. I don't mind the actual increase in variety.
     
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  19. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    First I think you should have read my posting another time. But anyways:

    Interesting. So you say Kriza is OP, but don't compare it to other factions units. In relation to which units is the Kriza OP then? This just doesn't make sense.

    If you would have read the posting thoroughly, you would have noticed that I said "sectorials". Vanilla is no sectorial.
    If you take the HI out of Nomads or nerf them, you automatically nerf the sectorials that are already mid-tier at best.
    If that is what you want, go ahead.

    Vanilla is n a good shape, yes. But not because of the HI you like to nerf, beause there are no HI-Fireteams in Vanilla. Yes, Kriza is as good in Vanilla as in Tunguska, but I don't see him distorting anything.

    What? I am writing that for the last year my Vanilla Nomads lists did not contain HI except for a lone Taskmaster and you are telling me that the Taskmaster is not as good as the Kriza. Has nothing to do with what I was writing.

    So I just checked my lists and during the last year I ran excatly one Vanilla list with a Kriza (Decapitation against Shasvastii where the Kriza killed Corax and died) and one Vanilla List with a Taskmaster. All the other lists didn't field any HI at all.

    Thats not how it appears. If you would argue the way @loricus did with changing the focus more to MI instead of HI it would be different. But all I hear is "Nerf our HI." The better way instead would be "Buff our MI." The HI are no problem. If it is a problem for Nomads to field HI, then the MI are just not good enough to field them. So the solution would be buffing the MI instead of nerfing HI.

    And the fact that obviously I don't need HI in my Vanilla lists to win my games should give you something to think about as well.
    I tried the Emily-Link in Starco myself and it worked extremely well. But because of Emily (and the fact that StarCo is the Nomads sectorial that can field the most potent AD-Trooper, Raoul and Hellcats). I linked her with Alguacil though and had not a single HI in the Starco list, just a whole lot of the fun skirmishers and of course Raoul plus a Hellcat. After Emily and the Hellcat did their thing, there was not much left. Raoul was just there for funsies.

    No, you say "Nerf these HI." ad I say "That's not needed, they are not broken."
    I played a Hollowman-Stempler-Team. Worked ... okay. After a Swiss Guard ML shot only half of them were left. Still won the game, but not thanks to the Hollow Men. So I still don't think they are broken.

    But I guess I'll stop at this point. You say our HI are broken beyond repair, I doubt it. Lets agree on disagreement.
     
  20. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I think the step has already been taken:
    These "generic HI" (Brigadas, ORCs, Janissaries) should be the only ones eligible for heavy mixed fireteams. Being able to put them in line trooper links is already an advantage.

    I don't think that a full Core of them really makes sense unless they get massive increases in utility, and massive decrease in points. That's why Hollowmen and Riot Grrrls work. They're cheap, they're optimized, and the additional rules they receive are all strong and quite relevant to the role they perform.

    I don't think Grrrls or Hollowmen should be nerfed, but rather that Nomads shouldn't have the monopoly on good HI fireteams, and that other choices in Nomads should be brought up to a higher level of viability.