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Did the process and conclusion of "backdoor" improve your Infinity experience?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Plebian, Apr 3, 2018.

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How do you feel about Backdoor

  1. I have a favorable opinion

    49 vote(s)
    28.5%
  2. I have an unfavorable opinion

    63 vote(s)
    36.6%
  3. I have no opinion

    49 vote(s)
    28.5%
  4. I do not know what that is

    11 vote(s)
    6.4%
  1. Sanjuro

    Sanjuro Active Member

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    yeah we're invested in them and what they do, but Corvus isnt a corporation and they dont have any responsibility to pay dividends to their shareholders like corporations do. they probably dont have to make any more money as long as they can still pay the staff and their overheads. it seems to upset people that theyre in charge of their own ip, but they really seem like sculpture guys doing a game so they can sell more minis; doesnt anyone else think that?
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  2. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest River Cool is where I belong

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    Dice changing other dice? This is Infinity, people, not curling or croquet.

    Basic dice courtesy:
    1-Roll them where you opponent can see them.
    2-Leave them on the table, and do not touch them, until you have resolved whatever action you were attempting (the "Dice Down" convention).
    3-Rolls that end up on the floor do not count.
    4-The die is cocked if and only if you and/or your opponent cannot balance another die on top of it.
    5-if you accidentally roll too many, pick them all up and roll the correct amount. If you roll too few, just roll more until you get the correct amount.

    To the OP question. The answer is no. The update to the army builder, part of the conclusion, borked the Haqq profiles for the time being. So I use the old Army builder on my laptop rather than the mobile app for a while. As far as inconveniences go, I give this a 0.5. I would give it a 0 if the regular army builder would show the retreat threshold. (Hint, Hint @-V-)

    And the online version is working again. Tarik is avaiable. One just gets la equis roja. Inconvenience level now not even a rounding error.
     
    #142 Red Harvest, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  3. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    I think nobody in their right mind would want to argue that CB own their IP and can do whatever they please with the game. The point is that investments such as buying and painting (time is an investment too, paying someone to paint for you is even more expensive) are made based on some assumptions.
    If someone pays 400 EUR for a bunch of miniatures and then spends another 600 EUR on getting them painted he most likely isn't doing so because they look so nice in the cabinet, but because he is under the impression, he'll be able to use them to play a game. Assumptions can include things like "I am confident to find other players in my area" or "I hope this army will fit my desired play style" to stupid shit like "with this new army I'll surely win a big tournament". Managing these assumptions is a part of selling the product of a miniature game.
    I think CB should experiment and do new things, so there is nothing wrong with having a temporary mismatch between the assumptions of a part of the community and the actions of CB. But it is a very healthy process if CB listens carefully to the complaints and and tries to improve. I believe they are doing so at the moment.
     
  4. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

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    You are not Investors. You may invest emotionally into the game, but you are only a consumer who bought a product. Your time and money are yours to do with as you please. CB doesn't owe any of us anything other than a "Thanks for buying our product!"
     
    Sanjuro, A Mão Esquerda and barakiel like this.
  5. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    When you assume, you make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'

    I will see myself out . . .
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  6. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    Except I'm not? I'm going to repeat myself: a large number of CB's customers are unhappy with how it was handled. That is simply fact. My anecdote was simply to say 'and I haven't seen much in contrast'. On the other hand, you state that your group is the opposite. Great! Isn't that awesome that you have such a cool, open-minded group that they're still down with it! I'm jealous! lol. I don't think either group should be 'more listened to'. I never said as such. What I said was it is poor business practice to ignore the majority of your customers when they all come to you with the same complaint. Perhaps not even the majority: for the sake of substantiate-able evidence, let's simply say "a large portion". It's bad business practice to ignore them because you risk alienating them into not buying from you (I know several people who've gotten out of certain armies because of JSA and now this), which hurts sales. Usually customer retention is paramount. I can't claim to know CB's business desires, but in a general sense "the customer is god" and should be pleased (within reason!) in order to keep them spending money with you.

    In your numeric example, my point is that the exact quantities are irrelevent because 20 is still a statistically important percentage of 100. 1/5 of your customer base disappearing because of a decision is not a good thing! I'd argue as low as 10% is still significant!

    To continue your example: the question I'd ask is "why would you come up with that given plan of action if you can only make 30 people happy"? That seems like a poor return for the risk.
     
    Dragonstriker and ZlaKhon like this.
  7. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    *sigh*. Do you seriously even read what the person LITERALLY RIGHT ABOVE YOU actually said. Where is ANYONE claiming 'we are owed' or 'there is a right' etc? It's not about owing us anything lol. It's about "don't piss off the person you want to sell stuff to!" Urg. Logic people, logic. use it.
     
  8. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

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    @stargorger Well, how about those two?
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  9. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

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    Being an investor in a gaming company as a customer is not the same as owning shares. I said it was comparable because both a share holder and a person who buys models for a game are both wanting the company to succeed. An investor wants a profit on their shares and a gamer wants a game the will continue to profit them in matches played, tournaments hosted and new product support provided. If a company fails shareholders lose their investment and future profits. A gamer is left with hundreds of dollars of useless products and a loss of future fun with them.

    Today we have tons of games out there from many companies, a niche game cannot live if it ticks off the customers nor can it survive if static. Finding a balance and making sure the customers who pay the bills are happy is tough but cannot be done by putting ones head in the sand and pretending that negative feedback is meaningless whining.

    If the majority of players polled think something is either a waste of time or a negative effect, myself as an invested gamer feels that is a bad thing for the company. CB staff have already stated they are serious about learning from this experiment of an event and I assume that translates into the negative backlash from the JSA stuff as well. This is all a good thing and why I feel I can both voice my disappointment in the current events while still feel that CB can only benefit from these learning experiences and produce better events in the future.
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  10. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    lol you got me there.

    Cry of the Wind and A Mao Esquerda are foolish rebels, and ALEPH will deal with them promptly, don't worry. NOTHING CAN BE ALLOWED TO CONTRADICT THE WORD OF THE AI!

    ;)
     
    Sanjuro likes this.
  11. alchahest

    alchahest Active Member

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    I'm curious how losing a model temporarily is ruining the game. is that one model the only thing making your lists work? This is a serious question, I'm not trying to mock anyone. If that one model is in every list you play, and is the only thing that makes the lists work, then maybe the game isn't as well balanced as you thought it was? Perhaps if you rely on that single ten to fifteen dollar model to make your hundreds of dollars of other investments work, you've picked a faction you weren't really ready for? I'm not trying to make the implication that you're bad at playing the game or list building, but I am stressing that having a single model ruin the game for you may mean that you aren't necessarily playing the game you thought you were playing, and it might be time to switch things up (try different lists or factions I mean, not give up infinity. I assume, and I think rightly so, that everyone here loves the gameplay and fluff and is at least competent enough to have fun)
     
  12. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I feel the need to be that guy - where is the fact? Where are the statistics that you base this one? Is this personal experience (and thus subjective), or actual material data?

    The Poll in this thread, as I have referenced before, shows more people have a Neutral or Positive experience than those who has a negative one. That is a "fact" so much as statistics prove with the small pool of information collected. I'm not going to make the same sweeping generalisations you are and declare that it is proven that "an even larger number of people are happy", I'm just asking that you check yourself and use actual facts rather than just declaring what you say as "fact".

    There was a great "news article" recently about the anti-gun demonstrations in the US, where a "professor proved with statistics" that the participation of minors was less than being shown in more left-wing, liberal media. The min crowd turnout was 250k+, approximately. This "professor" sampled 254 people, and apparently believed that around 0.1% sample pool, with sub-1000 people, was significant enough to prove something (it isn't).
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  13. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Oye, meu filho, I just accepted the premise to discuss the matter! :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  14. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

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    It's not that it ruins anyone's game. I haven't seen a single post anywhere here or on Facebook that claims this event ruined someone's army.

    The fact is the event took things away from people in an uneven way and has direct impact on tournaments. I have seen many posts on more productive ways the event results could have been done that don't take away from one group while ignoring others.

    From what I understand these characters will get buffs next event round. Leading with that would be a better event and one people are more invested in. I know that no one in my area cared either way. Personally I wrote off the event assuming that given the odds my faction would lose something regardless so why bother. If I could have won access to a new model I would be more encouraged to play to win and be likely to spend money on a new cool trooper that will be a proxy later on given the new proxy rules. Feels better to gain knowing you will proxy later rather than lose something and be forced to proxy it today.
     
  15. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    In the end i cant help feeling this is almost entirely a communication problem rather than anything else.
     
    P-Chan, Yoshimoto74, HellLois and 7 others like this.
  16. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    I agree.

    The event has been overlooked by a fair few people, including ITS players, and maybe also TOs. Information on the event's outcome was vague, and we didn't get a timeframe on the return of these benched characters until a forum post - we also needed that forum post to deny rumours the characters were being altered (something a bit mad with some of the characters taken away) long-term.

    The Winter Winner thing also wasn't actually part of this event either, they just were announced at the same time - I was confused by that as well and thought the HVT went to the event winner, not the winter winner, which as already demonstrated opens a different controversy that doesn't apply to Backdoor at all.

    CB's communication rep with the userbase have taken a bit of a knock these past few weeks. I can only hope lessons are learned and a slightly more open, or at least less vague, approach is taken with any future events like this.

    I also hope CB realise that taking away from armies isn't a crowd-pleaser, even if it is only for a few months at most- CA really only "won" the fact every other army that wasn't exempt got punished from this, so coupled with the fact CA won an unrelated event (not to mention the Bit and Kiss gain last year plus having three dire foes characters when everyone else has two at most... Unless you count Angus for PanO) easily can fuel the belief that the CA are having the deck stacked for them. Meanwhile, Yu-Jing players just lost yet another character, albeit temporarily, after losing the vast majority of their characters to the JSA, and will rightly feel pretty hard done by.

    CA, of course, aren't really getting it rigged for them. There's the controversy over that dude with the dodgy retreat thing, yeah, but will that really have much influence? Unless he "cheated" every game he played, unlikely. But it may help to remove the CA plot armour a bit next time there's something like this - it's becoming rather apparent they might not even need it, and narratively speaking, it's maybe important they do suffer some kind of setback to make them less of the Boring Invincible Villains they almost come across as.
     
    Cry of the Wind likes this.
  17. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    There is a lot to unpack here and assuming you are being serious you are going to have to try and see this from the other side.
    Maybe reframing the issue will help you.
    Let's take a balanced game like a poker tournament.
    You sit down to play a game and are then informed that one of the other players will be given the ability to draw a free card at some point over the course of the night.
    That card might not even help the guy.
    It's only one time.
    One small advantage like this is probably not going to change who wins in the end.
    A series poker tournament would NEVER implement such a rule and expect to be taken seriasly.
    I Friday night game in the garage however might do it and even enjoy such odd and random rules.
     
    Shiwen, inane.imp and Cry of the Wind like this.
  18. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    It's not entitled to point out a poor decision is a poor decision. It won't affect me overly because I'll just play my model anyway, and play someone different if an opponent objects, which I doubt.

    That doesn't mean it's not a poor decision. For a company in the business of selling models to play a game, attempting to invalidate using those models they sell to play their game is at the least very questionable. It's more a poor decision for them than for me.
     
  19. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    There's a case to be made for a native language Community Manager or two to help with communication and messaging around events and releases and keeping communication going on the forums and social media and whatnot. @Bostria is great and does what he can but there's certainly a case to be made (and a lot of game companies have one even without the language barrier).
     
    Section9, Del S and Hecaton like this.
  20. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    So you are assuming that this model removal causes balance issues. And you are assuming that CB didn't perform any kind of playtesting or utilise any form of analysis to come up with who was removed and why. Interesting.

    Infinity is a pretty well balanced game. But is it like Poker? No. If I have black cards in my hand, can I only play other black cards? No. If I get a picture card in my hand, is it worth so many points that my hand size is reduced? No. Infinity's balance doesn't come down to the inclusion of single models in a list. Otherwise, I'd see a bajillion posts all through this forum about how the game is broken because Ariadna don't have Hackers, or how ISS can't possibly win because they don't have TAGs. Unlike Poker, Infinity is not a game where everyone has the same access to everything. There are 52 cards in a deck and each player has an equal likelihood of obtaining one of those cards - I don't have a likelihood of fielding Joan of Arc with my Morats.

    Each individual's approach to list building is different, as is each person's importance or weighting of individual units and tactics. I'm not saying these changes have no impact, but I believe you're blowing them so far out of proportion as to be ridiculous - especially with your Poker analogy. You basically imply that the removal of a single model is inherently a disadvantage to me, whether I ever used those models or not, and an advantage to my enemy, whether or not they have also lost a model.
     
    Abrilete likes this.