1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Delete Retreat!

Discussion in 'ITS' started by Hecaton, Oct 17, 2018.

Tags:
  1. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    329
    Likes Received:
    391
    I'm a big fan of the Retreat rules as they stand now. They give enough disadvantage to make whatever you can accomplish under them really heroic and/or tactically interesting. They reward your opponent for savaging you without simply throwing the game entirely in their favor. And they present an opportunity for units with Veteran, Morat, etc. to have a very different end-game playstyle that has good narrative character.
     
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,925
    Shooting your opponent of the table wasnt the objective though. You want to be rewarded for not reading the instructions??
     
    A Mão Esquerda and Ben Kenobi like this.
  3. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    4,883
    Likes Received:
    9,931
    Because you want the macguffin yourself.


    So play the missions where that is actually the mission.
     
    Savnock and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  4. DruidNei

    DruidNei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    104
    So why can't you just blast it after taking the objective? I don't find this rule very well justified by fluff. Why do you have to suicide your troops to "persuade" command to drop the bomb?
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    4,883
    Likes Received:
    9,931
    I'm sorry, I don't understand. :-(
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  6. DruidNei

    DruidNei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    104
    I'll try to clarify my problem with retreat.

    Let's say one side loses badly, goes into retreat, calls for orbital strike. Probably somewhat justified. We don't know why they can't just call the strike whenever they want, but it's not the biggest problem.

    In practice retreat sometimes leads to games where the guy who capped objectives just runs his troops into lines of fire to force retreat.
    That's very unnatural situation on the battlefield, where you can suicide troops just to make your side "lose" (go into retreat) in order to win.
     
  7. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    But this can only be done in the active turn. Then the other player has another turn to change this fact, cause RETREAT! is checkt at the beginning of each turn.
     
  8. DruidNei

    DruidNei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    104
    Both this and abrupt ending of games seem very game'y. There has to be some better way to write scenario rules in a way to prevent purely annihilation oriented gameplay without mental gymnastics on how many points you're allowed to kill.
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    4,883
    Likes Received:
    9,931
    Probably, but nobody seems to have come up with a better one for Infinity yet, and people have been trying on and off for about a decade. :-(
     
    BLOODGOD, Sedral and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,154
    Likes Received:
    3,990
    I really disagree. The first reason I disagree is that because points costs are hidden information, getting your opponent into retreat is a gamble. The second reason is that Morats scrappily escaping with the objective isn't really in character with them; instead putting boot to tail until there's not much left of the opponent besides smoking craters seems more reasonable.
     
    sorniak likes this.
  11. Balseraph

    Balseraph Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    14
    How often does this actually come up? Or is this just theorycrafting? I've got anecdotal evidence for myself, but i'm really curious if this is an issue in other metas.
     
  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,925
    Pretty much this. At this point we're reached the subjective preference of retreat.

    @Hecaton why not convince a few players to consistently play without retreat, and take notes about the experience. I'd suggest getting some players to try the kill everyone first then score objectives strategy as far as they can.
    At this point, I think CB could do with some solid wee studies info the effect not ending the game on retreat has on the game.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    4,883
    Likes Received:
    9,931
    :point_up_2::point_up_2::point_up_2::point_up_2:
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  14. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    522
    I would say once every 20ish games and mostly with newer players who don't know how to protect a backline or have never seen a Van Zant or don't respect what an Achilles can do.
    I honestly don't think getting rid of the rule would effect my strategy very much if at all truth be told.


    I think there is a Starship Troopers gif I would use here about the enemy not pushing buttons if you disable there hands
    Hell really the only time an average player is going to get tabled is if they are playing LI or TRYING to provoke retreat.
     
  15. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Blank+_47038511f6ed24b50c9330de5f79b393.gif
     
    FatherKnowsBest and Andre82 like this.
  16. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    82
    eh...and I think... Infinity needs some kind of Infinity-Lite version (not RECON, which restricts use of units and narrows table size). Where rules would be streamlined and some rules, which are not close to core mechanic would be erased (in my opinion "Retreat!" rule is a good candidate to be erased)

    Retreat! is among hundreds of other rules which you have to constatly keep in your head make Infinity an impossible game to "play by rules"... I've been playing for more then 2 years, and I constatly find out that something I (or my opponents) was doing wrong. Frustrating thing ... 0_0

    Aaand we did play without retreat rules in our local community (won't lie - people forgot pretty often about it, even durnig tourneys). Honestly - no difference. Less things to keep in head. There are plenty of other, more interesting rules in a rulebook ;(
     
    #116 sorniak, Oct 20, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  17. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    97

    Attached Files:

  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,426
    Likes Received:
    4,020
    If I am honest, I don't really like any of the retreat mechanics that much.

    That said, I think that Retreat as a concept is acceptable and even good. The idea of dissuading people from just shooting the enemy dead and pressing all the buttons next turn on a clear table does sort of suck. I am not sure how to reach an equitable medium between satisfying for both sides.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,154
    Likes Received:
    3,990
    I'd be the worst person to do that, since I'm going in with a preconceived bias.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,154
    Likes Received:
    3,990
    It definitely came up during the tournament I ran this last weekend. Time limitations (players were only able to complete 2 rounds in some cases) also had a pretty dramatic effect on scoring.