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Dear Shang-Ji, you had your chance

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Ouch. That's a pretty dismal comparison. At that point, you might as well just remove the Shang Ji from the game entirely, it'd be doing the poor thing a service. It's just painful to look at in that light.

    So basically a mini-Tariq? I'd be on board with that. It'd be more than just 6-4 though, but that'd be a start. Super Jump or Climbing Plus could be fun. I'd like to see some grenades of some sort on there too. If you're going to go ham on the whole "superior" thing, might as well get as much as you can out of that physique. Especially since such a unit probably wouldn't play too well with link teams anyway, so a self-supporting arsenal would do wonders.
     
  2. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    How about going about it the other way? The problem might not be with Shang Ji itself, it's either on the same level or slightly superior to other factions' base HI. The problem might be with Zu Yongs, which undercut Shang Ji from below. What if Zu Yongs were the line version of "HI Lite" we saw introduced? 1W+NWI, Shock Immunity, acting as a base for the more specialized units like Hai Dao, Zhencha, Hulang and Liu Xing. It would also make them a bit cheaper, making it easier to field solid support for full HI link. Shang Ji can then act as a certerpiece of such link, bringing in superior durability.

    Regarding mobility upgrade for Shang Ji - I'd say 6-2 would be ok. It'd fit the "mobility" variants seen here or there. 6-4 is seen only in factions with higher base tech level - Aleph and CA - end even then only in really cutting edge designs.

    I'd also say that Shang Ji fully deserves BS 14.
     
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  3. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    Pan O knights are notorious for drinking deep from the frenzy discount well. If Hospitallers didn't have that, they would cost mid 40s to early 50s.

    That's why there is such a huge point differential between a generic knight and Deferson.

    The frenzy addiction has a warping effect on their non frenzy troops, edging out the Orcs, FK, and Sepulchre.
     
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I think the Superior BS is Yu Jing hyperbole.
     
  5. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    What, a price like the Shang Ji?

    Again, the Frenzy means nothing when they are linked. That's quite a discount!
     
  6. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth, I sure as hell wouldn't mind having Frenzy on the Hulang. But that's another topic. The Frenzy discount comes across almost entirely as a discount at this point, rather than an actual rule or liability.
     
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  7. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    Does that mean we are going go around and slap every one else baseline HI with 1w NWI?
     
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  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Standard ones, like ORCs, MBs, Suryat? No reason to. They're in the same weight category as Shang Ji. But there are a few units that could use this treatment. Magisters, for example. Riot Grrls. Ayyar.

    Zuyongs aren't "baseline", they were created as a lighter Invincible model.
     
  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The one good thing about NWI is that it includes Courage. I guess that's something.
     
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  10. Alphz

    Alphz Well-Known Member

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    The fact the hospitillars got a further point or two off and shang ji didn't is probably the bit that blows me away the most.. that and frenzy + religious providing a 5 point discount is insane.
     
  11. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    I don't think making the Zuyong even cheaper will make the Shang Ji more desirable. Though I wouldn't put it past CB to do such a thing when they are the same ones who thought that Bao would make pheasants more desirable back in Paradiso.

    The only way to make me take a Shang Ji would be to give it a better niche to fill with some thing like MSV or make it a more expensive but also very points efficient unit, like a shooty equivalent of a knight. I'm not sure mobility would even be a plus for it, being the only high mobility unit that can link means that it would only get full use out of it in a pure link. When using it as a wildcard with any slower unit, you'd basically lose all of those bonuses. More powerful basic weapons could work, would it really be the end of the world if they got a multi-rifle + light flamer without a points bump? Though even that might not be worth it. Multi-Marksman rifles? MK12s? Maybe just make them exclusively heavy weapons platforms? I really don't know, I'm not the designer.
     
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  12. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    It's all we've got.

    The only other alternative is Worfing ala Uprising.

    Closer to Crane really. The Shang Ji are cheaper than they would be if the MR was standard. That was a bit of optimization from back when MR were utter trash.

    Back to the frenzy discount, I am not excusing it, just pointing it out. It's another oddity of the current pricing system which also encourages dumping of certain stats (PH & Arm) and standard weapons. Something i was kind of hoping to see addressed.

    If you really want to bash your head against a wall, try wrapping your head around myrmidon vs Moira.
     
  13. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Religious provides no discount - see, Morat rule.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I actually suspect that the Hospitalers were hand adjusted with an increased discount after the magister link was nuked, in an attempt to push people into playing the Crusade link.
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting idea!

    That wouldn't make it the Superior-to-Wu Ming HI, though.


    It's literally the name of the unit, though.

    When the Shang Ji first came out, BTS was a modifier to the hacker's WIP, so the Shang Ji was effectively wearing ODD against hackers. It was also slightly faster (only in Move-Move orders) than the standard ARM4 HI. Today, those effects are covered under the Deflector L2 and Kinematica L2 rules (though that changes where the speed happens from Active Turn to Reactive Turn).

    I really wish that the Shang Ji had been bumped up to Crane levels or close to it. Give them Deflector L2 and Kinematica L2 on every profile, and either drop their CC down to 15 or 16 or up to 20-21. I'd also give the Shang Ji Tactical Awareness on every profile, since the people getting Shang Ji suits are the best soldiers in the Invincible Army. I'd also consider adding NCO and LT2 options, though I think those should not have TacAware.
     
  16. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    This is a very good point. Part of the Shang Ji's awesomeness in 2nd Edition was that its BTS -6 was basically ODD against hacking attempts.

    Downgrading to BTS3 but gaining Deflector L2 natively would much better represent that.

    I think if I were re-doing the Shang Ji now (now that the Hulang came along and was basically exactly what I wanted from a Shang Ji remake albeit a bit heavy on the CC and a bit shorter ranged) I would give this a go:

    Shang Ji Invincible
    Cube
    Regular
    Not Impetuous
    Hackable

    MOV 6-2
    CC 15
    BS 16
    PH 14
    WIP 13
    ARM 4
    BTS 3
    W 2
    S 2
    AVA 2 (3 in IA)

    Special Skills: Kinematika L2, Fireteam: Duo, Stealth, Multiterrain
    Equipment: Deflector L2, Albedo

    Shang Ji MULTI Rifle, Light Flamethrower, KrazyKoalas, Pistol, Knife
    Shang Ji (X Visor) Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Pistol, Knife
    Shang Ji (Minelayer) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines, Pistol, Knife

    Make its thing about denial. It is naturally hard to hack, it fucks with MSVs, and its somewhat iconic flamethrower becomes integral so that it can deal with things like ODD, TO, or just camo in general. It's fast, but lacks specialist skills (so it will need to slow down a bit if it wants to drag a Haidao along for missions). I'm also this close to suggesting NCO on it but that might be a bit too far (Tactical Awareness actually might be interesting here to make it a bit independent and useful in vanilla). Basically, it is a toolbox brick with a brain.

    I might actually half consider doing 1W+NWI and Bio-immunity or Shock Immunity on this one to keep costs down, but that still feels like cheating the point system to me.

    Alternatively, with CB's talk about proxying our old JSA paperweights as things. Well, I'm not saying remake the Shang Ji as Robotech Cyclones (transforming bike mechs)... But I'm definitely saying that. *cough*
     
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  17. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    Throwing Total Immunity on the existing Shang Ji could also be a fun option. Keep the CC bloat, the weird armour and BTS values, but make it even pricier and let it face-tank a Missile Launcher- or an EXP CCW. That will certainly give it a niche, especially with Karakuri gone and Sun Tze being designated LT all the time, as a valuable point man in links or out. The CC might even stop being bloat if anything short of MA4, Viral or Monofilament can't bring the Shang Ji down in one order, giving it more of a chance to actually use its CCW.
     
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  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's more or less what my initial mental image of the Su Jian was...
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    But is there a need in the sectorial for a superior linkable heavy infantry to the zuyong? Or indeed, is there room for it?

    I can see room for another high-quality profile comparable to the Hac Tao. I can see room for a linkable hero-style unit as well, but that doesn't really mesh with the current Shang-Ji fluff naming them veteran zuyong. I can also see a need and room for a buffed up light infantry with foam blocks duct taped on and the words "heavy infantry" written in crayon on the chest.

    Doing this one better; the Haidao has two kombat profiles (Combi and Red Fury) that I don't think will see the lime light at all due to Engineer and KHD being in really high demand. Moving these roles off onto the Làbǐ Invincible means Haidao is the special ops while the Làbǐ takes care of the more upfront door-kicking side of the forces on loan from the marines.
    After all, if you're going to invent a new lower level of HI, why not lean into it?
     
  20. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    THIS is what they should have done. I mean, sure zuyongs outshine Shang-jì as a core HI, but the later still has a bunch of interesting niche options that make it a good wildcard and an interesting addition to zuyongs... if it weren't for Tai Sheng.

    Powerful weapon to take after your HMG in the 8-24/0-16 rangebands? DTW? No SWC Tinbot-B? Moar order shenanigans? They just both compete for the same spot, they both cost approximately the same amount of points, but Tai Sheng is better because she has NCO and... that's pretty much it. Give NCO to the Shang-jì and suddenly you want him in all your zuyongs link. Hell, you could probably recreate most of Tai Sheng's load out on Shang-jìs and have a disturbly similar final product. Case in point, MK12 Shang-jì with NCO and forward obs would be 44pts, and i doubt the chain-colt + stun grenades would make it go above 46pts.

    However, i can understand why they didn't go with shang-jì NCO because of how it would have worked with the whole wildcard thing, they probably didn't want to see Yan-huos moving around with TacAw Zuyong haris and NCO Shang-jì. Sure they could have find a solution using FTO profiles and some weird zuyong linkability but the result would have been... messy, to say the least. Probably. I mean i doubt it could possibly be worse than varuna's ORCs who double-up on all profiles just to add stealth and terrain rules, but still...