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Dear Shang-Ji, you had your chance

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. armazingerz

    armazingerz Well-Known Member

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    Don't get wrong with minor tweaks, that won't fix that Shang Ji is too much like Zuyong AND WuMing, so, unnecesary. There has to be remarkable differences between units to give them a reason to exist, their differences can't be a few loadouts. That's one of the reasons why Infinity is unnecesarily bloated of units and the army is barely readable for people who are starting into the game. ShangJi needs a complete overhaul or a wipeout.
     
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  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori I think just trying to make them a Zuyong link 2.0 isn't the way to go here.

    I think we should basically turn the Shang Ji into another Haidao, make them another kind of wildcard specialist, but unlike the Haidao instead of being the oddjob guy showing up with an Engineer profile or a KHD, make them the shooty version of that.

    Do away with the Shang Ji's own links, screw them all. Let's accept that the Zuyong or Zhanshi are the basic building blocks for a core and Haris links and just lean into Shang Ji being Wildcard support. Forget the filler profiles, give them a bunch of BS14 profiles with different stuff like X visors, Marksmanship, Full Auto, Fatality, Grenades of various types and mix these with TA. Make them the option for an expensive but superior pointman for a Zuyong link, and let the Zuyong TA HMG be the budget option.

    (also not paying the CC tax would be a good start too)
     
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  3. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a humble Raktorak serving others.

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    Like a certain Japanese unit that got replaced by the Zensenbutai Tanko.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's basically what I was trying for here, though more mindful of where they are in the sectorial and what's missing. Most of what you're describing would be things they probably considered for the Mowang.

    There's a few things that Zuyong doesn't have that they'll need outside help with and while I am confident in saying a LGL is absolutely missing in the sectorial on aggressive models, I am not yet confident in pinpointing other things. Hulang are absolutely missing smoke grenades, for instance, but that's almost exclusively a problem for the Hulang unit itself rather than an overarching issue for the sectorial and it might run the risk of us spending 1.5 SWC on the Haidao instead of on the Zuyong themselves.
    Not that I'd mind the Hulang having smoke, it'd give it a clear reason to exist and support both Haidao and Rui Shi MSV2 play, but I'm not certain this is something IA needs.

    In fact, altering Shang-Ji to be grenadiers* would be kind of cool. I'm talking damage grenades now, mind you, but that might be special enough that TA would be completely unnecessary on them.

    * Instead of the current half-way-to-combat-engineer.
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying Zuyong are lacking, I'm saying make the Shang Ji superior. Make them an expensive point man you can buy for the squad with a unique skill like Full Auto or something. So when I build my link team I might go "yeah I feel like not going with the budget Zuyong HMG today let's go with the expensive Ferrari of IA." Then make different flavours of said Ferrari with different weapon and skill combinations. Only one you've really got to stay away from is mimetism to keep the Mowang clear, but then again the Mowang is so boring it honestly could've done with a more interesting skill as well.
     
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  6. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    I was hoping that Shang Ji would all get MSV 1 like Riot Grrls. Seeing that combined with their current wildcard rules would make them work considering so you didn't have to always take a Rui Shi.
     
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  7. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    They could use grenades or built-in Number 2 to really shine, yeah. But they're not bad as-is, and I feel like some weird Haris options with them have yet to really show up on peoples' screens because the faction's so new.
     
  8. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    As is, the Shang Ji has a very niche role and it has nothing to do with stats. That role is basically the 3rd or 4th wildcard you use to buff up a zanshi core. I'd probably almost always use the pangguling and the haido before the shang ji as a cheaper duo partner because it means more room for more expensive and better units elsewhere. And a zuyong core should prbably never add a shang ji unless you really need an HRL or you're somehow magically already at 10 orders with the points to upgrade a zuyong to a shang ji.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That would be a bit funny, but I'm only laughing because otherwise I'd be crying or murdering people.


    =====

    I agree that the Shang Ji could really use a Multi+LGL. Not sure what to put in it. EM would be amusing, Nimbus or Nimbus+ would be aggravating to the opponent, Eclipse would be nice to screw MSV3s. Actually, EM and Nimbus+ would be an interesting combo (kinda like the Muyib's frag and smoke loadout, but higher tech).
     
  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't mind an EM/Nimbus+ combination. I'd just like to stay away from a regular LGL on the Shang Ji. As good as it would be, I feel it'd just end up giving too much overlap with the Wu Ming. And while IA provides a bit of a different context, I'd still like to see the factions operate distinctly.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Okay, let me commit heresy here. Is the Shang-Ji even necessary?

    What if (and I hate that the Haidao as a concept is a closed book while writing this) instead of a Shang-Ji we got a Feather Heavy that's got an amalgamation of Zhencha and Haidao statline.
    MOV 4-4, CC 15, BS 12, PH 12, WIP 13, ARM 3, BTS 6, W 1, S 2, AVA 2 (IA: 5)
    Bioimmunity, V: No wound incapacitation, Climb+
    (Haris, Tinbot B), Combi + Light Flamethrower, Pistol Knife - 0,5 / 26
    (Assault Hacking Device), Combi + Light Flamethrower, Pistol Knife - 0,5 / 28
    (), Heavy Rocket Launcher + Light Shotgun, Pistol Knife - 2 / 24
    (), Combi + Light Grenade Launcher, Pistol Knife - 0 / 26
    >Insert your own pet peevee profiles here
    >Same fireteams as Shang-Ji

    Basically, a light mobility HI that's decently protected against infowar, but lacking the TacAw of Zuyong and not as fancy targeting.
     
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I mean it wasn't unthinkable that the profile was gonna get squatted. CB clearly has no idea what to do with it.
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    From the Guija thread to this one. Feeling a bit poetic, @Mahtamori? :sweat_smile:
     
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  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Yes I know it's not good to compare to other troops but this kinda burns me. Hospitaller is almost the same but even better in some respects. Better CC & BS, Martial Arts (including stealth), link in MO, DA CCW, and is for the most part cheaper than Shang Ji! The Hospitaller with Frenzy shouldn't get that much of a discount. Especially in MO where a link team makes it irrelevant. Look at Multi Rifle vs. Multi Rifle and tell me how that makes sense.

    upload_2018-12-4_10-33-54.png
    upload_2018-12-4_10-34-2.png
     
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  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Truly, Shang Ji put "Superior" in "Superior disappointment."
     
    #35 Triumph, Dec 4, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  16. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    But it has Frenzy! That's such a drawback!

    :face_with_rolling_eyes:
     
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  17. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Even worse to compare HMG vs. Spitfire :sleepy:
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  19. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    What if you gave the Shang Ji a 6-4 movement like the other superior HI (Achilles and Joan). Make it appropriately costed, but you get a zuyong that isn't harder hitting or bigger, but something that has a little more armor, a little more BTS, and more importantly, a little more speed. It puts it into a "superior than human" Ferrari level. Its better at everything that doesn't put it into a new "bucket" of skills it needs to do. Its not some piece of equipment that was bolted on, like a visor, or an elite occupant, like full auto: its just a better suit.

    Fast HI is also something all the other HI that nomads and Pano have can't do: so it reinforces YuJing as the HI faction.

    Edit: apparently logging in kills half the message.
     
  20. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    Just go read the "How to make Shan ji superior" thread, it's full of ideas.
     
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