I don't want the Guijia to better than PanO TAGs. I just want it to have a reason to exist. At all. A meaningful role for it to fill that several other units in the faction don't already do better and cheaper.
I've done a comparison of ARM8 TAGs. Unfortunately it's not even the cheapest. Maggie gets that even though they are nearly the same. Guijia gets a CC tax I guess.
I think there's also a points discount that goes with S8 and/or Heavyweight. The Lizard makes it look like the Guijia is only paying around a point for its CC upgrades.
I tell ya what, no matter which way you look at it, being able to spend a single LT order on a Guijia is not worth a full SWC anymore. Especially not in IA.
Yeah, I'm liking NCO and/or TacAwareness on the Guijia as a good adjustment. Honestly, TacAwareness would be good across the board on all TAGs, not just the Guijia, but I think the Guijia needs NCO as well. Good point! Should drop the TAG LT surcharge down by half a SWC (if not drop it entirely). Well, I'd really like an LGL of some flavor, ideally the Multi+LGL from the Wu Ming, but I really think that there's too much wrong not synergizing with the Shang Ji as-is. So it really needs a total overhaul, IMO. It's not, but it's not really worth 88pts, either. I mean, a BS14 MultiHMG is worth about 53pts (Yan Huo, and we basically don't take the M-HMG because there's a 54pt HRMC instead!). The Guijia does not add 35pts worth of awesome to a Yan Huo. It's always been possible to write a list that could lose you the game. It's just never been possible to write a list that could win the game for you. No, it wasn't. INYLIY came out after Campaign Paradiso (where all the "must take certain models to score points" crap started). INYLIY means that you can't netlist your way to victory in Infinity, you absolutely must know how to use the tools you brought.
We've been over this heavily in other threads but it boils down to a few things Doesn't compete effectively with all of our other attack piece options Costs way more than all of our other attack piece options (so brings way fewer orders) Isn't even outright faster than all of our other attack piece options (some can start in the middle of the table, the Su Jian has outright better movement stats) Has more weaknesses than all of our other attack piece options Harder to use because it can't prone and has a big size, and harder to heal/fix than our HI because you can't reroll with our WIP13 support dudes on the Guijia alone Has to play way more defensively than all of our other attack piece options because getting possessed up the table is basically game over You'll remember the Raicho was basically a copy of the Guijia almost to the letter. It needed a buff, it got the buff it needed to make it interesting again. I'm pretty sure almost all of us here were quite sure that the Guijia was getting some kind of buff as well because it badly needs it to make it feel worth its cost to get on the table.
There wouldn't be half as much disappointment if the model wasnt so great that you want to bring it to the table. Raicho getting the mine dispenser seemed a great way to lift the unit up, without worrying over balancing extra orders, a more powerful gun, improved stats & modifiers, etc. It does something different than the other expensive Morat units, and that opens up a whole new space for people to figure out what they can do with it. The Guijia really wants something like that, something odd that the other high-cost YJ HI dont do, so its not competing with them at 100% overlap but has a role where the only model you can take to get that tool is the TAG. A Guijia tossing smoke grenades or something.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Drop the Multi HMG to a regular HMG, pump CC to 21, give it a MA lv2 and a smoke launcher and call it a day. It would gel really well with Hulangs. You could give it a DA (or even Exp, but that's reaching, and have too much overlap with the O Yoroi) CCW to give it more punch, but it wouldn't be absolutely necessary to fill the role of a mobile close quarters support brick.
A Guijia with Grenades. REGULAR Grenades. I am not even kidding that sounds like an interesting option now that I think about it ( If rather exceedingly silly, since it'd mean it tosses them on 20s in good range and speculates on 14s. ) Kinda like a close range point defense system? ''Oh shite tiny man is attacking me, better blow him up-''
At the end of the day that still just means there are tiers to list building lol. Back in the day you get a new player asking if his Guijia list was any good and few people had any idea, some people are using it without issue so you might as well "play what you like" or some other meme. Tactics however are definitely a deciding factor so if you keep losing the issue is probably not your list. Now however the community has grown and we are starting to make some real headway into the exploration of the game. It's an interesting time to be playing infinity.
Hypothetically, at least some of that SWC cost is to account for the Guijia being harder to kill than your average Lieutenant model. But in general, Lieutenant SWC costs are based on a lot of factors, including influencing players into preferring certain choices over others.
The learning curve to writing decent lists is not very steep. I have it summed up in 4 concepts, Orders, Guns, Speed, and Specialists.
Given the existing CC investment, a Trench Hammer instead of the AP CCW could be hilarious. As could a Tactical Bow, especially dual-wielded with the Twin Weapons rule. Those tiny t-rex arms on the chest would finally see a practical use! Honestly, I like the TacBow idea a lot. It would be a very unique design for a TAG to rely on a single, absurdly hard-hitting attack instead of weight of fire, and could bring the cost down a fair bit. Give a Guijia a Tactical Bow and the Stealth rule, and no enemy could be comfortable turning their back on your army. It would also synergise very nicely with Yu Jing's top-tier AD and Infiltrator options, slipping into the enemy's DZ and forcing them to turn to face the new threat, then obliterating them with Damage 18 DA shots on normal rolls from the TAG. Would need a lot more workshopping to balance, but would be undeniably fun, and the only thing about TAGs Yu Jing can't improve upon with their powered armour is the sheer mass of engine and electro-muscle so making top use of that aspect would be very much in-character for them.
That's the thing, you aren't supposed to take the Guijia at all. There's no way that CB put the Guijia into Invincible Army with the idea that it was ever there to actually be used.
