1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Dear fellow YJ Players - you do not want IA ASAP

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Teslarod, Mar 25, 2018.

  1. geniusloci

    geniusloci Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    20
    Well, PanO players can tell you more on the topic of nearly identical troops. I can't be even sure which ones you are talking about. Yu Jing loses are small and are only accounted if you didn't play JSA. From my POV I gained new army with better options (JSA), and an easy transition to one more (Ikari). Well, lost few options from my YJ lists, but nothing that important.
     
    #161 geniusloci, May 2, 2018
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
    Balewolf and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    This is a gross misunderstanding. It affected vanilla Yu Jing dramatically.
     
    xagroth, Triumph, Kallas and 5 others like this.
  3. SpecOps Birolla

    SpecOps Birolla Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2018
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    53
    Please tell me more about how little I lost when I went from having a good miniature pool of vanilla YJ minis to two heavily gimped armies(YJ/JSA).

    And I don't play competitive Infinity, mostly casual, and even then what I have is no good on the table.
     
    xagroth, Triumph, Hecaton and 6 others like this.
  4. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    471
    Zuyong/Shang Ji/Wu Ming are all damn close in capabilities. Very little difference in actual stats and equipment is mostly different on the Wu Ming.

    LI we have (had) Celestial Guard, Zhanshi/Keisotsu (though no longer). They're damn near identical. Even things like the Zhanying/Pheasant and Hsien/Crane are pretty close, but at least they are distinct enough.

    Point being, however that there was plenty of design space left already. JSA units were almost completely different, design-wise, from the other Yu Jing profiles. The design space argument is pretty hollow.

    Way to be demeaning! Well, you're alright, eh Jack? They must mean we're all ok! :face_with_rolling_eyes:

    Yu Jing losses are approximately 25/30% of Yu Jing models. That's not small. Despite both you and CB saying that the losses were unimportant, to a lot of people they were important.
     
  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    So you and Janzerker are to blame for that? I hate you guys :joy:

    .... the first two LI are Keisotsu and Zhansi I assume. What's your gripe about CG though? Boarding Shotguns, Spitfires, Smoke LGL... seems distinctive enough for me.
    Same for the HI, Wu Ming are ISS and have Panzerfausts, Chainrifles, LSGs, HRLs...and no Cubes. Zuyong lack any DTW and are cheap budget options without DTW, but with their Dual Breaker Pistol Trademark as well as optional Automedkits. Cranes are clearly a beefed up HI with distinct traits (Sensor, X-Visor, potent CC, dual Nanopulser) and unique mixed Links. Shang Ji are undesireable at the moment, but don't have their Sectorial yet.
    Compared to PanO or MO I wonder what your specific gripe would be.
     
  6. Furiat

    Furiat Mandarin

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    332
    If MO is the same, why people take only hospitaliers (and sometimes santiago)?
     
  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,002
    Likes Received:
    4,661
    Thought there were unfortunetaly effective at that ;/ Aquila is very underused and Auxilia do not appear anymore "en masse" :( (somone played 20 Auxilia list ?xD)
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,002
    Likes Received:
    4,661
    MO is not the same. MO might have many HI profiles but most of them are carbon copies of each other, and/or are eclipsed by better options, or have no real use/niche idea behind them to use them effectively.

    Hence why you can see 90% of time Hospitaller link, sometimes switched for Santiagos (I would make a wild guess that mostly due to a fact that Santiago models look superb!).
     
    A Mão Esquerda and Furiat like this.
  9. Furiat

    Furiat Mandarin

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2018
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    332
    I know but I wanted to point out that having breaker pistols instead of normal ones is clearly not distinctive. I agree about YJ diversity in expensive HI.
     
  10. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    471
    The Celestial Guard are nearly identical to Zhanshi/Keisotsu. The BS and Spitfire profiles are hardly distinctive, they're weapons we have plentiful access to, and the BS profile is predominantly useful for the FO. The only really distinctive element is the Smoke LGL.

    Regulars, Auxilia and Fusiliers, for example, have some important differences.

    Auxilia bring their Auxbot which gives them a particularly distinct capability.

    Regulars are similar to Fusiliers, but they bring a variety of equipment/skills that a different:
    Fusiliers bring DepReps and heavier weapons; Regulars bring FastPandas, Minelayers/Sensors. Additionally, their stats are similar and they cost the same, making the choice far less of a clear cut decision. Unlike Keisotsu/Zhanshi/CG, where Keisotsu were the obvious choice, unless you wanted an actual hacker, where the CG was better.

    As for HI:
    Shang Ji are basically Wu Ming but with some big taxes for minimal stat increases. Zuyong hold the budget category with barely any variety (a couple of weapons and some basic specialist options, which are also covered by Wu Ming/Shang Ji). Wu Ming do bring some unique weapons though (Panzerfausts, SMGs and Chain Rifles).

    There's still some heavy overlap, and these are the closest HI, particularly in cost. Prior to Uprising, we also had the Domaru (good at mid/short range, reasonably cheap and great CC, some unique equipment/skills like Berserk and EM Grenades); the Haramaki/Tanko (cheap, Impetuousness, good at CC with some distinct weapon options such as Blitzen); and the Karakuri (Total Immunity, Dogged, good weapon combinations unattainable elsewhere in the line up, and G:RP). And Shikami (very mobile, ODD and Nimbus for mod stacking, while still being mid range).

    Those options were very different and have Yu Jing a very strong HI line up. The loss of Domaru, Haramaki and Karakuri impacts the options of our low to mid range HI. Our high end HI are still certainly good and distinct, but as they're packing a hefty price tag (50+) they're not really things to compose the core of a list, they're the special elements that are included in support.



    I'm not saying that PanO don't have overlap, they certainly do, just that Yu Jing is far worse off than they were previously, and HI expertise is touted as one of the major strong points of Yu Jing.

    My gripe is that CB removed a bunch of distinct units because they want to add distinct units. It smacks of money grabbing behaviour: "We've removed bloat and now we can add cool new units!" They didn't remove bloat, and if they introduce new Yu Jing units to take up those roles very closely, that's a pretty shameless money grab; and if they're not actually similar, then there clearly was already design space.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    So... exactly the same as the complaints about Shang-Ji and Zhanshi (prior to losing Keisotsu). There's a more cost effective alternative and the gimmick you pay for isn't strong enough to make an argument.

    I'd not muddle the waters by mixing in Celestial Guard in this (the increased WIP and BTS makes them competitive hackers and LTs as well as their restrictive AVA makes them a non-comparison*) nor make a claim that Zuyong or Wu Ming are too similar (they are, but it's more like how a BSG and a Combi profile from the same unit is very similar - both units have very distinctive range bands)

    * I'd still like to change CG, but for other reasons; make CG a barebones Zhanying/Pheasant (i.e. +1 BS and +1 ARM), make Kuang Shi become like Pupniks to the CG Controller (which is a separate unit with unique AVA), and introduce a mercenary unit that is literally law enforcement (moderator statline, armed with SMG, Marksmans Rifle, BSG, Stun Pistols, Contender+Adhesive Launcher - absolutely no DTW and no FO (artillery spotter makes no sense for Police)) to fill in the low-cost gap that taking KS away and increasing cost of CG does.
     
    Section9 and Kallas like this.
  12. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    699
    I'd honestly be glad for the overall number of DTW on cheap profiles to drop - the chain rifle spam I see vs certain factions isn't hugely exciting when I want to run elite or harder to hit units. I don't mind the DTW on HI, as they have a meaningful cost and accordingly aren't totally disposable when you go for that trade.

    Anyway, as for the different HI, I wouldn't mind them removing the shang-ji and use the old shang-ji model as a hsien or something, just so we can have zuyong as our cheap HI, and any new HI troops can be really unique with either AD or motorcycles or something.
     
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,885
    Likes Received:
    11,260
    Because Hospitalers and Santiago are the only ones who form full link, so any other MO profile while distinct will be brought as an outsider to do a specific task, that in a list with full HI link even if 3/5 are magisters is at best problematic, hence why you do not see many mixed MO lists.

    Now if we discuss if terracotta and Wu Ming are distinct with all other Yu Jing HI, they are, if we discuss if Shang Ji are left in the back burner, they are.
     
    A Mão Esquerda and Furiat like this.
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    Those are really cool ideas!


    The big problem is that Shang Ji have not been updated (besides the change in hacking device and a pair of new profiles) since 2009 (Human Sphere N2).

    At that time, Shang Ji were the only ARM4 HI that moved 4-4, and BTS-6 meant that you suffered a -6 to your WIP to hack them to Immobility. Made them pretty damn superior, since they had the speed of a Zanshi and effectively ODD against hacking. Even Interventors needed 9s to hack, and PanO needed 6s.

    Now, though, they aren't any faster than other HI, and the meaning of BTS has changed from a to-hit mod to a to-wound mod. While Shang Ji are 5pts cheaper in N3 than in N2 (they went from 42 to 37pts), that's not enough. They're too expensive to run more than 2, and aren't really good enough to be worth not taking a Daofei and a Weibing instead.
     
    xagroth and Hecaton like this.
  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,885
    Likes Received:
    11,260
    I do not see anything to debate or disagree about that.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    It'd be sweet if they gave Shang Ji 6-4 move.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    I'll just note, about this, that a brief google-fu session allowed me to locate an illegal trove to resources for the Infinity game (including scanned copies of 1st and 2nd edition books), and photos of more recent products, and PDF of other Infinity things.

    The relevancy of this? I've been keeping an eye on it for the past month, and the last addition was a few days ago... of the frigging Army installer for Windows. Stated as "with old JSA as part of YJ". So it would seem like there are people up there in the net who will go to great lengths to either keep an historical repository of Infinity, or are not so happy with the JSA split.
     
    Kallas and oldGregg like this.
  18. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    1,010
    Better call in the ISS. Shut it down!
     
    xagroth likes this.
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    5,930
    Likes Received:
    5,079
    I too like the idea of making Shang Ji 6-4 Mov. This would be in line with what they were originally created for back in the day. They were supposed to be the “New and Improved” Invincible. I’d also say give them a boarding shotgun to make them in to a great shock troop. Give them a good reason to have the higher CC18 and Shock CCW!

    I’m hoping with this trend to have REM join fireteams, we could see more of this in the IA. They also don’t all need to be the Smart missile. I’d be happy with the Combi Rifle, FO Weibing. or even the 8pt Chaiyi.
     
    Kallas likes this.
  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,532
    Likes Received:
    4,594
    Well, the "improved mobility" units in N3 are 6-2 not 6-4 but I agree that would be one good possible change.

    It's been claimed that movement is reserved for non-human units, but I've always considered the sourcing on that claim to be dubious.
     
    Kallas likes this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation