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Dear fellow YJ Players - you do not want IA ASAP

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Teslarod, Mar 25, 2018.

  1. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    Also, JSA isn't a Yu Jing sectorial anymore, and any JSA releases are not Yu Jing releases. JSA may cannibalize a portion (maybe large) of the YJ playerbase, but it is no longer, in any way, part of the faction.

    That means YJ is not getting a new sectorial, this isn't a YJ release, and pretending it is, is, quite frankly, insulting to the intelligence of the community writ large.

    Obviously they thought YJ players wouldn't mind - which seems, to me, that they forget some very basic points about people, primarily that losing things causing a great deal more displeasure than gaining things causes pleasure.

    The fact that YJ is ONLY losing things here makes the calculus downright simple, YJ losses > 0 YJ gains, accordingly YJ players are upset, especially those that don't have the disposable income to buy a JSA starter or a new set of YJ minis to get their armies back up to scratch, because we had a small collection to begin with.
     
  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    You really think that not many Yu Jing players will play JSA? or Ikari?
     
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  3. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    Regardless if they do, they won't be playing YJ - and the minis are no longer YJ minis.

    And as I said in my post - some of us don't have a big collection and are now kind of stuck because we bought units to finish our YJ army, and now we have red veil + JSA support units and really don't have a complete army in either direction. People in that position are, I think, rightly a bit put out because we aren't able to just throw another 100$ at having a usable force right now.
     
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  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Are we still discussing if an IA and JSA would practically aim at relatively the same main buyers group?
     
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  5. Hjiryon

    Hjiryon Well-Known Member

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    To try and cut through all the back and forth here, here's a simple question:

    Assume CB had planned this storyline as follows, going back however long their production rotation is:
    Release IA, and build a storyline about increasing trouble keeping Japanese insurgents under control, and how it has forced the deployment of part of the Invincible Army against them, since ISS couldn't keep things under control.
    THEN formally split off the secessionist army down the line, and remove JSA from YJ and send them to NA2, as the gradual strain within YJ brought things to a head.

    Do you believe this way of doing things would be superior to the present model, yes or no?
    Feel free to qualify your response, but if you don't clearly answer the yes or no portion of the question at all, expect to be called out on that.

    Any argument of "IA wasn't ready, so they couldn't do that" is simply countered with "Then they failed to plan for this release, and that's a problem".

    ...

    Just to reply myself:

    Yes, I think this would have been the superior model for doing this, because, and only because, it would have given YJ players some warning that this might be coming in the storyline - instead of a split out of the blue with a new book. It feels rushed, and forced.

    But then again, I think the superior solution to this entire storyline (having JSA split out as their own faction) would have been to have a protracted conflict lead to YJ being forced to cede certain rights to some japanese territory somewhere (old earth japan?), simply because the alternative would have led to (continuing) war crimes against the civilian population, and the emperor himself intervened to stop this.
    It was a fight the YJ could have won. But winning would have been much too expensive in lives, resources and reputation in the human sphere.
    You know it's bad when the imperial power that uses Kuang Shi and Wu Ming in their police forces throw up their hands and go "Okay, continuing this fight is just too inhuman, it's not worth it."

    But that's just me.
     
  6. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    To some extent?

    I'm more speaking to the 'you don't want YJ minis because you are getting JSA minis' and they are no longer the same thing. JSA is no longer a YJ release, and it needs to be considered seperately going forward, because a YJ player cannot use it in, or with, his YJ models.

    Also, the point I'm making is that YJ players who are on a budget are both A: Not getting any new minis, and B: losing minis they own without any great way to fill the gap left by the minis themselves, especially if you don't like using proxies that don't even remotely look like the profile they are representing.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    We're starting to get full circle, but we also know that CB is well ahead of their schedule and as evidenced by their rigid release schedule they don't release something when it is done. I mean, it's obvious they don't operate in an order that follows my logic, now isn't it.

    In either case, to take this full circle we can always go back to the fact that they still haven't done any damage control for this release (throw the people who do not like this a bone - release a profile similar to ALIVE non-release, release a miniature early for a unit we've got, release a profile update for an IA-related unit, clarifying a few things about what models are meant to go in IA and which not (don't underestimate the value of a small hype-cycle), you know... anything?), which means that any logic claiming that this is a release with sales in mind (as Storm is arguing) also kind of plummets as well.

    In short, they done fucked up and there's not much arguing around it.
     
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  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Well, hundreds of posts across multiple threads beg to differ with that... and even stipulating that CB didn't do things the best, there's plenty of... what's the best word? Shame? Childishness? Immaturity? on the other side of the debate as well...
     
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  9. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Do I believe that the method you suggested would be superior to the present model?

    Yes, absolutely.

    It generates excitement for IA and YJ in general, and story-wise it would have set up the Uprising way better. The Invincible Army has been a part of YJ's background for a while now (the Invincibles have been a core element of vanilla YJ since at least N2: Shang Ji, old school Invincibles and Daofei at the very least were IA then). The background wasn't that the IA wasn't 'ready', it's that they were updating their hardware and streamlining. The IA, at its core, was already the prime HI force in the Sphere - from a background point of view, it is ready to go.
     
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  10. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It bears noting the expansion/clarification/modification of the proxy rules has come into place, making those units viable as something else, provided someone is willing to take the choice offered...
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, for the one who wasn't affected it's easy to judge the feelings and reactions of those who were.

    As annoying as those reactions might be for you, they aren't unjustified or without reason.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    There's a reason people buy minis at all, there's an intangible value to having the actual minis that are represented at the table. If you run an entirely-proxied force where it's utterly incomprehensible which unit represents what, I take that back, but as much as I like to talk shit, I don't think you do that. We're still talking about a situation where yu jing players have lost value while getting nothing in return.
     
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  13. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    IN MY HEAD (i still miss the book and i'm basing on what i heard on CB Videos) the IA was not deployed AGAINST JSA, but BETWEEN ISS and JSA and between YJ and the rest of the HS. It seems something like a move to not lose your face.
     
  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Please do note that "in universe" the IA already exists, and has seen real battle (at least against the CA), but we, the players, won't see it until they release the profiles and the sectorial (in universe explanation: the IA does not do cover work like the ISS and the JSA... until they have to because the JSA left).

    CB claimed repeatedly last year they were advanced both in design and sculpt. Also, their bottleneck has always been physical production (so many machines, so many storage space). Besides, they are copy/paste a lot of poses lately, so...

    In a way, they do. In another, they don't. For example, my whole budget for miniatures goes to Infinity (aside from a KS or two, like Bones),but that money has to be spread between Nomads, Aleph, Haqquislam and CA. Thus, any month that sees releases on two or more of those means one will have to wait, thus reducing the "first weekend money made".

    Now, lets consider that most YJ players have JSA models that no longer are part of YJ (so ONE Ninja does not count for this) and dabbled in JSA (because it's easier than, for example, make a greek army, and you can use those troops in vanilla). If you release both IA and JSA at the same time, and suddenly too (they did it withe the JSA box), initial sales will be less than they should if they are released separately, even if the overall sales would be the same.

    So yeah, there are some overlap, and I don't think it's a bad decision to separate the launch. Problem is, IA seems to be going to wait until next year, and that leaves YJ without fuel for a whole year while the other factions get their releases.
    One could be an alarmist and say "the numbers show that YJ doesn't sell, so we will Exrah the faction".
     
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  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I do not think there is any fear of that Yu Jing sells, Exrah... well starfish Aliens do not sell.
     
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  16. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    If you released BOTH JSA and IA at the same time, you'd force people to chose.
    I'd like BOTH of them, having both on the same month or back to back is an economic investment i don't want to do (note: almost 40yo with a regular job).

    And on CB side, releasing a totally new sectorial is a special event. If you have a special event every given month, how can they still be special?
     
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  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Our Lord and Savior Cthulhu finds you answer... uneducated... ;)

    Combined Army, Morat and the Sith (I mean Umbra) aside... not very human, but not really starfish, ok.
     
  18. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    How is this particularly different to releasing an starter box and the Beyond boxes? There are some differences, of course, but ostensibly it's asking the same question: choose. The only real difference for the starter box is that you have a higher initial cost because it contains more (but mutually exclusive) models.

    Point being, JSA and YJ are now mutually exclusive. Where before a JSA release could possibly tempt vanilla/ISS players to buy, they now only appeal to people who want to play JSA - so in that regard, how does another sectorial's releases compete (particularly if they're actually trickled at the usual CB rate)?

    Well, a double sectorial release should be pretty epic/unique in its own right, that's got marketing value in and of itself. Besides, people aren't asking for a new sectorial every month (at most they're lamenting how badly they want IA, and how IA's release should have been factored and Uprising).
     
  19. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    So what about if they had done this event as a two player starter box?

    • YJ players with most YJ units get a transition into IA and future IA releases so they're happy but also you've got closer to them picking up future JSA units as they are part way there and haven't been angered by the process
    • YJ players with mostly JSA units get a transition into JSA and future JSA releases so they're happy but also you've got closer to them picking up future IA/YJ units as they are part way there and haven't been angered by the process
    • YJ players with a mix of units hopefully get enough of a boost that they have a choice of which route to take. There may be some fall out in this group still
    • New players get access to a starter box with its own narrative making it an even bigger draw
    The point is that in this scenario most YJ players will have a draw to one half or the other and will have something to be excited about so your sales should draw from both pools. The current strategy only draws from existing YJ players with a preference for JSA so is inherently a smaller target and simultaneously alienates the YJ players who prefer YJ. Those are already poor odds.

    The really sinister thing here though is the only way that taking those odds makes economic sense compared to some of the alternatives is if the background sales show that the YJ with lots of JSA playerbase is large enough to push them all over to JSA and that be worthwhile. Of course the ancilliary to that is the pure YJ playerbase must be comparably small and by extension is (at that point legitimately) at risk of being Squatted.

    Now, all that said, I don't think releasing IA early would actually have helped as much as would be desired. Without knowing that the JSA split was coming it would've felt good to get the IA units and then that would likely have been forgotten (or at least is no longer generating an emotive response) by the time the JSA were stripped out of YJ. Combine that with the risk of cannibalised sales (an issue bypassed by it being a 2 player set I should point out) if done as separate sectorials.

    The bigger question we should really be asking is why was it necessary to take all the JSA units out of YJ?

    • Because the fiction said so? Write a different fiction that isn't going to alienate your players.
    • Because of design space? Just remove the troublesome units and allude to the exciting thing that will fill that space.
    • Because of a desire to draw more people to JSA? Build bridges between multiple factions and the new JSA backed up in the fiction to draw in even more.
     
  20. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    I would say that it was not necessary at all, but good enough move. Safest way was to froze faction as is to avoid any feelings hurt and later add new sectorial without adding its contents to vanilla army. This approach, however, would cause outcry of all vanilla players of all factions. Hm, deadlock.
    So no, safest approach would be don`t do new stuff at all, just resculpt existing models. Such a wonderful non-offensive game could it be.
     
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