Some of us YJ players actually don't mind. Because we now have not one but two new Sectorials to play (JSA and Ikari). The complaint YJ Vanilla is crippled is simply not true. The vast majority of efficient choices in YJ Vanilla remain. In fact YJ Vanilla has barely a single or slightly inferior carbon copy troop left. Play some Vanilla Nomads, CA or PanO for a while and you'll understand why others might sneer at the notion of "oh woe is me, we got royally f***ed". Our remaining Sectorial lost nothing, gained a better CSU and beats or matches pretty much any other Sectorials in regards of versatility and power level. The Oniwaban and Shinobu are the main thing that is gone. However this only affects one in 10 lists. A few cheerlearders are gone to make room for their red headed stepchild brethren (Zhanshi), so those can have a place in the game. The Raiden HRL was a nice value package but lets face it he is a value filler, not a crucial part of any list. The rest wasn't really played much at all in Vanilla, maybe with exception of the Aragoto who have a good bit of overlap with a Sujian. Far from equal, still if you want ridiculous speed you can get it although Hackable. If you can't get over the loss of your beloved trooper X that unfortunately is tough luck. Sorry mate there is nothing you and I can do about it, that is over. Unless you like the game enough to start Ikari or JSA to keep playing with those troops you might consider to quit, to sell your (unusable) minis, or ditch your YJ to turn the back on Infinity altogether. That's 5 choices and if you do not like any of them I'm afraid you're out of options. You misunderstand that. I said it's time to stop being a whiny little bitch and take a reality check. Which means figure out you only really lost 10% of your options and the vast majority is still playable sometimes with slight changes. Constructive discussion and how to bridge the gap without what is gone should be the main concern instead. My complaint is the circlejerk of a few select individuals selfishly forcing their personal problem with this on the entire community, JSA lovers, fellow YJ players and everyone else alike. @Mahtamori if the rules are finished and sealed that's great. But they might not be the problem. Similar to the missing Taqeul sculpt there simply might be several designs missing, maybe the artists burned out a little and needed a break after two years of ISS and JSA. And I'm sure the next one is a statement that is very easy to disagree with but you have to consider CB's business plan. JSA/Ikari is very attractive for a large part of YJ players. Releasing IA soon afterwards oversaturates the shared YJ/JSA Playerbase and is economically speaking very unwise to do. JSA sales would cannibalize IA and the other way around. So don't hate me for saying it, but IA 2019 is the proper way to go.
But making legitimate business decisions is shitty business teslarod. Don't you know anything about marketing 101?!?!
I question whether JSA vs YJ actually cannibalises sales much more than Tunguska or Kazaks would cannibalise sales from JSA or vice versa. There is merit to not releasing them at the same time, but I don't see there being much merit in pushing IA forward too far. At this point if there is a real reason preventing them from releasing Tohaa models or IA, then I think they should communicate it instead of pissing about like they did during the Uprising promotion period.
Today is the day where I'd really love to have a "everyone just shut up and take the red pill" card. I might be crazy, but we'll see after CB releases ITS numbers with JSA/Ikari and later IA to compare. Fun fact, I just noticed that one today and noticing stuff like that is supposed to be my job. The white noise surrounding the whole situation made me completetly oblivious to the best explanation there is: CB expected more YJ players to like the JSA split and jump on a new Sectorial than to be deeply offended ("how dare you CB" - quote CB April releases from 4 months ago). If that was CB's verdic how it would turn out it was a long time ago, way too long to change it within the last month. So they genuinely expected to do us a favour even though some might not like it. The forum is usually too small a sample size to get a good grasp on what is really going on. My money is on JSA selling like hotcakes regardless of what is portrayed around here and that would prove them right. You can't always make everyone happy, sometimes MSV3s need a nerf, sometimes things need to be shaken up and Toni bites it. Sometimes 2% of your Playerbase need to take a hit so you can make 8% happy. They did their homework and checked the stats on JSA troops, they explained it in detail and they didn't tell you to like it. But they aren't apologizing because you got your explanation, a proper one, at Adepticon. Explanations are way better than apologies for everyone who can be bothered to listen.
I do know that at least in my local meta the JSA box was preordered like hot cakes... something on the order of seven folks decided to start based on the box alone.
Of course, and I am, legitimately, happy that other players have that. I don't, and several others don't. I agree that vanilla isn't crippled, but it's certainly lost plenty of variety. JSA didn't actually take any of the carbon copies with them: Zuyong, Shang Ji and Wu Ming are a big source of our HI bloat, with Hsien and Cranes being pretty similar though with significant enough gear/skill differences that they are distinct enough from the Invincibles. Also, one thing happening doesn't invalidate another. PanO, Nomads or CA having significant overlap is an issue. That doesn't mean that there's no issue with losing a whole bunch of different units in YJ, it simply means that there's now an additional issue. Oniwaban/Kitsune are both major examples; Raiden, well maybe you didn't consider it particularly important, but as you're so quick to point out, there are players that it was important to; same with Aragato - they might have some similarities to the Su-Jian, but they are different. For example, I enjoyed running my Aragato in support of a Su-Jian; an Assault Hacker Aragato made a good support unit that could remove some of the threats to the Su-Jian without spending a heap of orders, or I could use them to clear/tie down thorns in the SJ's side (like ADHL troopers, or clear some mines to minimise risks, or trigger potential traps, etc). Or how I enjoyed using Aragato to take advantage of the midfield area my Guilang/Daofei had secured. Point being, these units are gone - yes, I could spend another bunch of money to be able to run them in Ikari/JSA (and I could run a limited selection of JSA lists, because of the boxes I bought, but hardly lists that actually appealed to my preferences and playstyle) but what I wanted to do (and could, until very recently) was run them alongside the other Yu Jing units I have. Now they're aesthetically different proxies, instead of profiles that I found interesting. Sure, there's little I can do about losing JSA profiles now. But I can make it known to CB that it was a fucking bad move that upset me and several others. It was terribly handled - if CB would actually learn anything from it, that might actually help them in future, and maybe spare other factions' players from a similar situation in future. The thing is, I enjoyed my JSA profiles in vanilla. I did not enjoy the JSA sectorial (the style the sectorial forced/preferred was not one that I was, or indeed still am, particularly interested in) and I don't want to pick up new units to play NA2 JSA. What I can still do is make it known to CB that I, as a customer, found this situation to be really shitty. Maybe you could try being a little compassionate, instead of high and mighty? It's not that difficult to see how some people can feel slighted. As I said before, I don't begrudge that other players are happy with the situation, or that they like that they have new things and can do things differently in NA2, but that doesn't mean that every must feel that way. You get to decide how other players feel, right? And do you not see how you're trying to assert your own perspective on this situation? That everyone should be ok with it, and no one should voice their complaints because you don't like it - guess what? The utter contempt and dismissal that CB has shown the remaining YJ players through the transition has been incredibly grating to me; it isn't to you, so good for you, but you're actually creating more of an issue by trying to quell discontent through further dismissal - ironic, since that's basically Uprising in a nutshell. Does it? Surely the split means that there are now two player markets to appeal to? If not, surely it stands to reason that anyone who plays Qapu Khalqi or Starco would distract from PanO/Haqq/Nomad releases (if those releases are not directly related to those sectorials); and similarly any Sectorial and vanilla releases would distract from the other. JSA are now no longer linked to YJ at all; exactly the same as how YJ and Nomads are not linked, or how PanO and CA are not linked. The logic would follow that their releases are independent of one another now - so IA would not impact JSA, and vice versa, right? If I recall correctly, there were releases for other factions during the same period that Red Veil was released. (Though I can't find the release images for that period, if someone wants to prove/disprove that notion, please by all means do so). I don't hate you for saying it, but I do strongly disagree.
@Kallas Have you thought about just continuing to play using your JSA units in Yu Jing? Unless you're doing ITS play, you could just keep going using the old roster. Since you have strong feelings on the issue, I imagine your opponents would be willing to accommodate you.
What would have been quite nice is to fluff that the JSA uprising is happening, add NuJSA to NA2 for rebels, and keep JSA in Yu Jing for existing forces, until Invincible Army releases. That way nobody would have been blindsided, everybody could play with their new Daiyokai, and nobody would be left with 1 sectorial as Yu Jing.
I'm sure they would be willing to, and I may do just that from time to time. At the same time, quite a lot of the players in my area are fond of the ITS scene (and I enjoy our local tournaments) so for any kind of ITS practice (for them) that's out. Additionally, while I don't mind too much about tweaking things in casual play, I prefer to play things as they are because it makes things much easier for pick up games.
With what though? JSA Players and IA having more overlap than JSA and Tunguska playerbase? Sometimes it doesn't matter if you disagree or not. I'm struggling to not step on your toes here so I'm just gonna be honest. It is hard to respect a different "opinion" on the matter. What I stated wasn't an opinion, just the natural way a business would go to keep being successful. The same way the earth turns around it's own axis and around the sun. Too cliche a comparison for my taste, but I couldn't do any better for now. Thanks for that one mate. Got a good laugh out of it 6th Option. Good thinking, kudos for that. That's not what Gutier wanted and it doesn't fit the fluff. Domaru, Haramaki and Oniwaban all left at once in one fell swoop. Not sure they even considered the option, but the fluff as it ended up now would not. Couldn't say it better than @Kallas said as far as actual play is concerned. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alright, this thread has run it's course. I have no intention to expand what is already happening elsewhere. Cheer up it's just a game, we all can get overly invested at times and need to take a step back to get a proper view at things. If you want to try and keep this going, don't let me keep you from it. What do you guys think, lets call it a day here and keep the discussion for the other still active threads? However if you think there is more that needs to be said, go ahead.
With this (the part that I quoted): I disagree that IA 2019 is the 'proper way'. I strongly feel that CB should have prepared it for release much earlier, considering their knowledge of the split. Essentially, I think it should have been, with hindsight, more intrinsically linked with Red Veil and Uprising such that Yu Jing could be a better foil during the Uprising event. That would allow Yu Jing to retain some level of stability during the transition period of the secession as well as allowing CB to make a much more satisfying situation for those disenfranchised YJ players (ie, we'd have something else to focus on and be happy about, rather than being simply left to gnash our teeth). I think that second point is actually important. If players being upset and venting is troublesome, wouldn't it stand to reason that something for them to be happy about would quell that significantly? If CB had actually made the effort to make IA (greatly anticipated by many YJ players for many years) available in the same timeframe, a good portion of us complainers would be a lot less upset; it wouldn't stop everyone from being entirely unhappy (I love my Domaru; without literally changing the game how Barakiel suggests, I can't use those profiles - and there's basically nothing that functions in the same way as they do in the remaining YJ profiles) but it would give a channel to focus on and enjoy. ISS is certainly unchanged, and I do somewhat enjoy playing them, but they have a specific playstyle that doesn't appeal to everyone.
@Teslarod I think you make a lot of statements about what you see as sound business sense which have a lot of truth (cannibalisation of sales is bad, etc) but you fail to take account of the importance of keeping your playerbase happy and engaged with a long tail product. The reason CB have a lot of the narrative is to not only act as an initial hook for new players but, as Bostria was explaining at Adepticon, to help player retention. If the expectation was that many YJ players would switch to JSA (a sentiment I strongly agree with given the shared model pool and the draw to asian cultures in general even if not explicitly the Japanese section previously) then the most important players to keep onside and happy through this process are those YJ players. With that in mind something like the suggestion @Magonus made would make perfect sense as the fluff should be written to support the sound business decision you are so keen on rather than being some immutable construct which must be obeyed no matter the damage it does to the playerbase. Of course, if the expectation was that JSA players would come from all over and would benefit from the resale of ex-YJ player miniatures hitting the secondary market then there is no cannibalisation to worry about and releasing IA simultaneously would just help reinforce the narrative of the uprising.
That's exactly my thing. I'd quit the game if they took Morats out of CA. I don't even play YJ but I think this is bullshit.
Same here in my local group. I personally as a Nomad player not started JSA before because it was part of bigger faction whose aesthetics I don`t like. Especially some of resculpts like great Su-Juan turned from quirky transformer to stupid cat. Now I`ve pre-ordered both box and book and also found Keisotsu*2 blister in sale box at local store for ~$6. A bunch of other guys pre-ordered box just for miniatures, not even decided do they want to play faction.
People can buy the new JSA and still think the handling is total shit. The only JSA minis I own currently are the redveil ninja and the shikami (good troll there CB) and I have preordered the box because I wanted to eventually get to JSA anyway and It will help having another army to demo games with. But Like I said, the way this was handled was blind at best. The jig was up prettymuch as soon as the first ENOUGH came out yet CB waited over 2 weeks to even address the future of yu jing and then people wonder why the is upset.
I used to play High Elves, you know. This is gentle transition. Also FFG DUST Tactics. Have some stuff not converted to terrain left.
Good for you m8 I play dark eldar. When people spout off how good a company CB is then defend the handling of this issue its a bit much.
I think some posters overestimate how much overlap exists between JSA and potential IA players, on the other hand Tunguska and JSA have significantly less overlap. releasing both JSA and IA together would cannibalise sales and slow down the releases for both. Now even if IA was ready, releasing it without miniature support is kinda pointless a minority will be happy to proxy and play the lists the majority will complain why the models are not here and when the models arrive they will have lost the impact of their release.
