It's also a pretty flimsy point. I mean, we're talking about a high tech suit of power armour, that's exactly the kind of thing that one would expect out of high tech equipment.
It more or less exists in game, it's call mobility suit xD. For me going 6-2 + giving some extra gear like MSV1 or specialist operative to make the Shang-Ji special is worth it.
I don't think 6-X movement is possible for humans and Shang-Ji are humans, not recreations. There are better methods of mobility that work within the framework - Mechanized Deployment, Forward Deployment or mixed Fireteams. The fact that Shang-Ji (currently) has Tinbot B tells me they're going to go with some form of fireteam option.
Before we saw the mixed fireteams, I was expecting a Zuyong Core, Shang Ji Haris, and maybe a Yan Huo Duo in IA. Now we will still probably see those, but I'm also expecting a Zuyong Special Core with a Sonbae and a Shang Ji Special Haris with a Zuyong or two. But the real problem with the Invincible Army is SWC. You basically have to take a Zuyong HMG LT in order to have 3 heavy weapons and a hacker: Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 9 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26) ZÚYǑNG Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 29) SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18) YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) DÀOFĚI Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 59) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) 6 SWC | 296 Points Open in Infinity Army There's no engineer in this list, and it's only 9 orders. Also, there's an Assault Hacker without a Killer Hacker in support. So one of the things that is going to be needed is a Killer Hacker of some kind. While a Ninja Killer Hacker would be ideal, I really don't want to include Ninjas in the "New Model Army". I'd really like for there to be an Engineer in power armor. Call it a Zuyong Gongcheng, make it a separate AVA and maybe even unavailable in vanilla, but make it linkable with Zuyong. I'd like for there to be a Doctor in power armor as well, with the same "terms and conditions" as the Zuyong Gongcheng engineer. But paramedics in the link team are almost as good. Because of how you need to build the army, you also really need Chain of Command, obvious LT is obvious.
Zhuyong medic/engineer profile, AVA total on zhuyongs (only for Invincible). KHD Guilang profile Also I hope for Sun Tze to be here, and linkable with any Core (same as Hector on the Greeks) That solves 2 problems, but the expensive orders are an issue :S
Tinbot F - AI Beacon. Give the enemy facing that Zuyong link a choice of taking down the link leader, the heavy weapon, or that dude with an SMG who provides two orders on his own.
I have a feeling that IA will not get the Guilang. They are a White Banner troop. Daofei are the IA camo infiltrators. I'm wondering if there will be a new MI troop. I have no idea if Tiger Soldiers will be in IA and right now they are the ONLY Medium Infantry other than Sun Tze. While I think IA should be a lot of Heavy Armor, we need some sort of middle ground between Zhanshi and Zuyong.
By fluff, Daofei are supposed to be the IA camo infiltrators, but for some stupid reason @Bostria keeps saying that they're not going to be in the Invincible Army, but only in White Banner. That army list I posted is why I say that Zuyong need to go down about 2pts across the board, they're just a little too expensive to make a Core fireteam with HI backup.
Quoting this one to avoid quoting the whole line of posts. Yes, YJ lost a lot of profiles. But there are only a few that were used often in Vanilla. - Oniwaban and the Shinobu among them, were a loss that I believe was the heaviest in term of scalpel troops and competitiveness. They are unique, now reserved to a small army. - Much less the Karakuri, I doubt even 5% of the YJ players have the models. - Aragoto - while a huge loss if you relied on their tactics, they are another troop that wasn't used often, looking at most lists in the old YJ section. - Keisotsu - I do believe this was the greatest loss. I never needed anything from the order monkeys in an army of elites, so I wan to spend on them as few points as able. - Domarus, Haramakis, whatever, used occasionally but they were mostly exotic to see in a Vanilla list. - Raidens... well, these will be missed, I've always loved them, but they are completely gone and I can accept that. My to gripe about it is that I cannot hide now Hac Tao with Camo deployment, we have no commonly used troops that do that apart from Major Lunah, and she's not a common choice by far, something the Raidens were. Also the new unit under JSA is more expensive and lacks the Spitfire profile. Problem is that you look at the situation from the PoV of the current loss of troops, and not from the gains we can expect from the whole ordeal. Also with disregard of the flexibility we had compared to most (though not all) armies. We just don't know what's in front of us, and while we enjoyed being in favor for quite some time (ever since they published the Kanren profile and Ninja KHD), we are now the faction everyone turned against. And, from the fall of one great (probably the greatest) faction we gained at least two NA armies - for me, it's a fair trade, much fairer than buying Anaconda you couldn't use anymore. What we also gained is the possibility that the State would strengthen exactly what failed it, so we can expect changes that make up for the losses. Sure, we will never have Oniwabans now that the clans pledged loyalty to the uprising, but we will gain something, we just don't know what is it. I'm so much more pissed off about the lousy (it's unbearable, and I'm not even native) English in the Uprising book and some missed opportunities with the JSA. I can't even relate to the supposed Zuoyong/Shang Ji similarity, much less to compare CGs to Keisotsu. There is nothing so similar between Zhanying and Phaesants, and there isn't even remote similarity between Cranes (X-Visors, Sensor, Spitfire, AHD) and Hsiens (MSV2, HMG, +1 SCW option) apart from their stats, and those are not something unique anyway. What I meant by saying the PanOs are so similar is that they have same stats, different weapon loadouts, not much in terms of tech. If anything, they look like a ways to force teh PanO players in some tough choices regarding links.
The flexibility we had as a vanilla faction was not exceptional, especially as one of the original factions. Compare to Haq, Nomads, Ariadna, and Combine. More flexible than Pan O, yes, but that's more due to the Pan O side. And the tap is still going for the other Originals. Nomads, one of the most flexible factions in the game, is getting Tunguska. Tunguska has already paid dividends in the rockstar Kriza, which went a long way toward shoring up Nomads weakness in the elite HI category. Power accretion is only looking to continue for everyone, not just Yu Jing. Us not knowing what's in front of us is a big problem in and of itself. How can you sustain hope for the future when all you have is supposition and hearsay? It represents a significant and continuing failure of communication on CB's part.
I'm constantly amazed by how cheap and well equipped Haqq profiles are. On the other hand, my Hsien kills them all anyway, so I guess brute force works.
But we DO know whats up in front of us: resculpts. Yu Jing's last two releases for the year are the Support Box over the summer, and the Celestial Guard SWC box after Gencon.This was announced by Carlos at Adepticon. Maybe they do something in the winter, since 5 releases seems light for a major faction, but if Yu Jing is still sharing JSA's release buckets... things look grim. Well, Haq is all about cheap stuff and asymetric trades. They used to actually have suicide bombers, but they took that away because of ... reasons that aren't relevant to this thread.
True, to an extent. Nomads elite HI was boud to happen, they already have the best team of certain girls, for a crafty bunch of technonerd factions putting up some rare elites wouldn’t be a problem. Best MSV2 HI - Hsien Best Camo HI - Daofei Best TO Camo HI (not there are many) Hac Tao Best Skirmisher (or close to) - Guilang Even fielding just those so far you are pushing the line well to your opponent’s side. Best scalpel infiltrators - (now gone) Cheap ninjas MSV2 REM (also Lu Duan) Yan Huos Kuang Shis and Shao Lin Su Jian ...
I must confess I am confused as to what you are trying to say here. There are certainly pieces unique to faction such as the bargain priced Yaoxie, lightning bruiser Su Jian, and camo infiltrating Daofei. The Hsien is the only MSV2 HI in the game. If you mean MSV2+, I'd be inclined to say they are the most versatile for the price, but the Charontid is best in class followed by the Asura. Those two just pay for it. Similarly the Hac Tao is more versatile at the price point than the Pan O equivalent, but is blown out of the water by the Combine Anathematic. The Guilang is a great skirmisher with good kit, but is around 7 points more expensive than mainline skirmishers in multiple factions. For reference Ariadna can field a mix of 3 foxtrots and chasseurs for just a few points more than dual Guilang. Nomads aren't far behind with zeroes, bandits, and Moran while Haq mixes Hunzakut, al Hawwa, and Farzan. Let's not even get into the outrageous deals that are the Post Humans and Clipsos. The Yan Huo is a strong fire support entry with BS14, but is rivaled by the Kriza who trades ammo type versatility for uncancellable shooting mods and speed. The Sogarat trades volume of fire for speed and automedkit. The Azra'il and Blackjacks bring pressure from the bottom with bargain priced AP HMG. As for the Kuang Shi and Shaolin, they too have rivals in other factions. The Mutts are the highest up in the power curve with their bag of tricks. The 45th bring the trade power of dogged and berserk while packing their own smoke. Morlocks bring great CCWs and actually have multiple usable options for loadout unlike the Shaolin. And Ninja are certainly not cheap.
Ours are flexible profiles with multiple options, what I’m trying to say. In fact YJ didn’t even had a specific playstyle, apart from being unable to do huge Camo spam (but being able to deal with it). Internal balance-wise - Nomads are even more versatile in some ways. But you wouldn’t expect an elite HIs list there as much as a deep infiltrating top-level pair of Onis as we could do before. I’say we were too flexible, and while I will regret not having Oniwabans forever, I’d not cut my wrists because CB made a change that will probably be for the better in the long term. I played JSA before, I’d play with it even more now, and add the Ikari as well. You can easily pick units that are better in something, yet... MSV2+ (not that it mattered that much): Both Charontid (S5) and Azuras have much higher list-relative price, lack stealth and the Azura comes with a SWC price tag on its only viable wepon in a faction already struggling with it. Yes, Hsiens are versatile. Also able to discount SWC. Also able to get in a link in ISS. And pretty much closest to having a Rambo in the list vs. certain factions. Hac Tao’s EO may be overshadowed by Memonica, but the Anathematics have TAG-level price and S6 body. Can’t even get my head around it being similar to a Hac Tao. Yan Huo... well, just ask CA and Haqq players. Unique weapon loadouts and again - flexibility. Please don’t bring Kriza to the party, it’s new, not even a model released, it doesn’t matter in the past tense of us being too flexible. Guilang - surely there is another SK packing Camo with MSV1, mines and repeaters, FO, infiltration and WIP14 at once. Kuang Shis are cheap enough to serve as walking netrods... considering their controller is more or less a staple if you can spend the SWC. KHD ninja is just 29 pts.
They aren't sharing release slots. June has both the Keisotsu SWC box and the YJ Support Pack as releases.
Hol up, so yu jing was too versatile and nomads was just as versatile but now we get versatility cut out and nomads get more put in with at least 2 new units and one totally reworked. Seems legit...
Actually, Beyond Ice Storm Kriza was around for quite a while. And I'm not sure how comes we are not supposed to take into account a unit everyone and their moms run in every list for about 6 months already, if not more.
This is where we will have to disagree. I do not believe our previous flexibility was a threat to the health of the game. I accept the loss of JSA as a function of the fiction, but I do not buy justifications that it was to get rid of bloat (see Ariadna), the faction was too flexible (see Haq and Nomads), or most galling, nothing of value was lost. You said best. I know if there is something hunting my troops , I'd rather not it be something that auto discovers and packs way more durability. Also, unless the +1 SWC is the primary difference, dismissing the multi rifle on the Asura while bringing up the MR armed Hsien in the same breath seems off. A tough TO bruiser with the stats to fight out of damn near any firefight? And possible specialist option? Also S6 is not nearly as big of problem as it is for TAGs. Much like our hallowed Su Jian, it can go prone, allowing it to avoid LOS when it wants to. That is on top of the power of the marker state. For reference, the Hac Tao is also up there in price, just three short of an Iguana. Given the option, I'd gladly take a zero and spend those 8 points elsewhere because the Guilang still dies pretty easy to common tools such as templates (hello mines). I love the Guilang, but this is Yu Jing and all the little gear costs add up. I find them useful too, but I resent being forced to take them more often since line troops pay the damn CC tax. And is basically a TO infiltrating KHD delivery device that occasionally gets to slice up things. The tac bow is really restrictive and the Ninja PH 12 doesn't help. Compare to the Bandit who is irregular, camo, not as skilled in CC, and WIP 12, but packs the lean but highly effective combo of LS and ADHL which lets them get work done.
