1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

DBS in the N4 hacking niche

Discussion in 'Druze Bayram Security' started by Capo.Paint, Jan 10, 2021.

Tags:
  1. Capo.Paint

    Capo.Paint Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    285
    Hello folks!

    Since it is a bit quiet here (for reasons) and the first experiences of the current N4-meta (at least virtually) are gained, I want to discuss a potential niche for DBS in the actual situation. From my experience, many current lists run TAGs or other HI rambo pieces and KHDs are quite rare. Everybody tried it in the beginning, but then it became clear that nobody really invests into a dense hacking network properly, so HIs and TAGs can be used quite unthreatened. From what I see around there, that is a solid assumption, since most factions can't set up a really good hacking game. But there DBS comes into play. Besides Nomads, we are provided with on of the best set-ups for hacking regarding repeaters and link-options. Of course, a HD+ is missing, but besides that, we are able to reach a top-notch network quite easy.
    What we can utilize in most points is a) targeting units to better shoot them, b) isolating important key-pieces or c) slow them down. WIth Gromoz we have a unit to scare many TAGs away from our repeaters even more. The biggest benefit would cleary be the nasty smart-missile-tactic, what can be done quite easy with DBS but is pure boredom in my eyes. So I would like to think about alternative hacking-builds with DBS. Here is something I came up with:

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    BRAWLER (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27)
    DRUZE Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Grenade Launcher, E/M Grenade Launcher / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 28)
    BRAWLER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Submachine Gun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BRAWLER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Submachine Gun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    VALERYA GROMOZ (Hacker) Combi Rifle, Zapper, Pitcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21)
    BRAWLER (Lieutenant) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    DRUZE (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Pitcher, D-Charges ( ) / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    PEACEMAKER Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 26)
    [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 4)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Red Fury / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 20)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    WOLFGANG AMADEUS MULTI Rifle(+1B), Chain-colt / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 35)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    KAMEEL (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Group one does most of the shooting and hacking stuff. Gromoz can distribute some pitchers in the early game and then the three sixth sense hackers can do the work reactively. This is supported by the two Hunzakuts. One KHD outside of the link to get an additional marker-specialist and have two additional pitchers available. Wolfgang in group two as a back-up striker for the late game. I run him allone, since he doesn't need any support once he can advance without major problems.

    What do you think about this approach?
     
    toadchild likes this.
  2. AssaultUnicorn

    AssaultUnicorn KTS is the best unit

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    322
    Likes Received:
    314
    Wolfgang has way too few orders IMO so I would insert a couple of people from group 1 into group 2 so that he has more orders to go full Rambo.
     
  3. Capo.Paint

    Capo.Paint Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    285
    Ideally he does nothing in round one and the Hunzakut does his work. In round two the Peacemaker will be wrecked and Wolfgang can join group one. Even if the Peacemaker is alive, that is no real problem then, I guess.
     
    AssaultUnicorn and toadchild like this.
  4. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    3,731
    Likes Received:
    7,012
    I would consider putting both Hunzakut in the same group so that you can use a coordinated order to recamo them after they drop repeaters with their irregular orders.
     
    jfunkd likes this.
  5. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    896
    If you're going to do this list with Druze, I think you want to have the Clipper in it.

    Druze have a fantastic midfield for repeater coverage, and most often that means Spotlight will be your best, and more often, your only option for ARO with Hacking. Spotlight is pretty big in a faction that hovers around BS and WIP 12-13.

    If an opponent is half way through his order pool and gets Targeted inside of your Hacking Area, then your opponent has to make some very difficult decisions and potentially gets into an order sink of getting outside of your Hacking Area and then trying to shed the Targeted state or eat Guided shots at the top of your turn. Also the clipper is pretty iconic and useful in DBS.

    As for your list, from strictly a hacking point of view, I feel you have invested too heavily into Hackers. One Brawler, Gromoz and a Killer hacker seems like it would be more than enough. Also, the EVO isn't really worth it for a Peacemaker alone IMO.

    I haven't played Druze for a while, but I have been doing a lot of hacking with Tunguska.
     
    Capo.Paint likes this.
  6. Capo.Paint

    Capo.Paint Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    285
    That is a solid suggestion, which saves an order over the course, thanks!

    Yes, it is the obvious solution as mentioned in the initial post. From an effective point of view, I won't argue that, since it is a simply good tool and strategy. But (sorry for this) it is a really boring way to do it. Once you have a core link with Gromoz and an other linked pitcher-dude and the Clipper in group two, you don't really need other essential pieces to dominate the whole game. Everything else is only for the situation that you roll bad or go second.

    I thought that it would be good, to have one additional device to flood enemy hackers with AROs, but if it can work with one hacker less, it would be great! The EVO would need a second REM, maybe a Pathfinder, yes. But running the spitfire Peacemaker without assisted fire seems like a waste of potential to me.
     
    jfunkd likes this.
  7. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    896
    Sorry, I got focused on the premise and list, and I didn't retain your rejection of the Clipper when returning to it today.

    If you prefer not to actively pitcher (or any of the various repeaters DBS can bring) + Spotlight and drop guided on targets, I get that. It can be a waste of orders too since it's a single dice attack with additional required effort to set up, but the threat of it alone is worth the points and going to change the way your opponent plays.

    I like to think of the Clipper as a passive tool, at least the Spotlight part of the process. Let the enemy step into your repeater spiderweb to hurt you, and then punish them for it with little order expenditure using guided on the active. Put down your Hunzakuts repeaters in ARO as a fail safe, use the peacemaker’s if you start reactive, or setup your spiderweb on 1st active if not. Your opponent is going to be aware of what your Hacking Area is and it will cost him orders to deal with it or it risks setting him up for your wrath on the active. If you start reactive and see something you can pin down with a template you can always direct fire ARO with FT bonuses.

    Also, their deployment will likely be affected by the idea of the Clipper, so at least mix it up with your regular opponents.

    I feel that Druze needs to leverage all of the tools it has and be very efficient with trading in most scenarios in N4. That said I haven't played them or played against them in N4 yet, so take my advice with a shaker of salt.
     
    #7 jfunkd, Jan 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
    Capo.Paint, rac and toadchild like this.
  8. Jotunn

    Jotunn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    158
    I would say you should at least bring 3 hackers. If you come up against some of the really good hackers you will need the redundancy and the extra AROs to make up the difference.

    That said I also try to lean into DBSs excellent hacking game. And think you can really give your opponent a headache trying to figure out how to get past the repeater network.

    You can also lay traps by leaving some paathways open only to have Saito waiting in these to ambush a link/TAG or whatever Else.
     
    Capo.Paint likes this.
  9. Capo.Paint

    Capo.Paint Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    285
    You have some quite good points around the Clipper, so maybe I need to give it an other try and not focus that much on the active game with it. I tried it in the core-team sometime and was not that satisfied, since I held him a bit back behind the MSV MSR, so it could be engaged after the Brawler and had a reduced defensive potential. Then it was to easy to eat up all the link. So I am a bit careful with that.

    Concerning the number of hackers, I end up with four most of the time for the following reason: I don't want to mix KHDs and HDs in the link, since they need to declare the same type of ARO (correct me if I am wrong here), so most of the time one ARO is missing. I also need to protect Gromoz a bit and if someone manages to attack the infowar-link, one additional hacker in my list will ensure a better odd to shut that hacker down after one try. In that way, I will only lose one hacker instead of two and half of my link.


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15)
    DRUZE Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Grenade Launcher, E/M Grenade Launcher / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 28)
    BRAWLER (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27)
    BRAWLER (Lieutenant) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    BRAWLER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Submachine Gun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    VALERYA GROMOZ (Hacker) Combi Rifle, Zapper, Pitcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21)
    PEACEMAKER Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 26)
    [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 4)
    DRUZE (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Pitcher, D-Charges ( ) / Viral Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 37)
    CLIPPER DRONBOT Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    BRAWLER (Engineer, Deactivator) Rifle, Light Shotgun, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 19)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This would be the evolved list here. My biggest concern is, that I am relying on the Peacemaker, my KHD and Saito/Wolfgang to score my points. There is no big gun in the list to do stuff. So if someone has some ideas on that, I would really appreciate some inputs!
     
  10. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    1,871
    Not a Druze player myself, but ditching Saito and the Launcher Druze, moving the Clipper into the Core and shifting the Peacemaker to a HSG gives you exactly space to put in an Anaconda and a Kameel EVO- which is actually really helpful for this sort of list, since it lets you refill Pitchers, stick Assisted Fire on a Core Clipper to turn it into a decent ARO piece, put Enhanced Reaction on the Peacemaker (the buff is shared with the Auxbot too, which is enough to scare even big stuff) and interfere with enemy Combat Jumps trying to bypass your midfield.
     
    Capo.Paint likes this.
  11. Hey Yella

    Hey Yella Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    21
    Late to the party, but I like my fire team to have a Druze killer hacker in it with Gromoz and then sprinkle in 3 models you like. With the x - visor on the khd with pitcher and the +3 for fire team bonus you can in one order reliably launch 2 repeaters close to, if not into a deployment zone. This obviously depends on terrain placement but I feel it helps corner your opponent.

    in the reactive turn it is decent defensively as being in a fire team the hackers have sixth sense and can go after any stealth hackers. Plus enemy hackers are at -3 to attack you through the repeater. I found the team to be dependable while defending a location and allowing my bulleters or other attack pieces to go on the offensive.
     
  12. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    896
    Sorry if you already know this, but it's important to remember that Hacking programs are not like weapons and that hackers in the same fireteam must react with the same program, so inherently KHD and HD in the same Fireteam cannot both hack in ARO without partially breaking that Fireteam (unless the HD has a Trinity upgrade).

    I only bring this up because it was not obvious to me in the rules at first, but it is the case. You may want to break out the Killer Hacker by reforming the fireteam after pitcher deployment if you have an extra body to make it 5 man. If you use Gromoz to Oblivion a Stealth Hacker in ARO, then the KHD would have an opportunity to react as well when it breaks stealth to Reset or hack attack back.
     
    #12 jfunkd, Jan 26, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
    wes-o-matic likes this.
  13. Hey Yella

    Hey Yella Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    21
    I did not thanks. I assumed it was like responding with a different weapon. The more you know!
     
  14. Swiss Toni

    Swiss Toni Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2021
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    5
  15. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    89
    What a sweet looking gal, a pity it's a one-of model. We already have a druze hacker mini, but y'know...

    RichieAprile_TheJacket_Season2_Episode8_FullleatherJacket.gif
     
  16. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,169
    Likes Received:
    12,980
    Technically the model isn't really a hacker, she lacks the hacker hand, funky backpack, or visor that would usually indicate one, it's just that she was the HSN3 preorder model and KHDs were a big new thing. She really works well as any combi armed Druze.
     
  17. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    89
    I don't know, maybe she's from the same hacking school as Valerya Gromoz and does without the hacking jazz hands...

    But yeah, I concede that her posture says "hacker" the same way Rasyat's miniature says "diplomat"
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,618
    Likes Received:
    5,319
    I always thought her sweet aviators were her hacking goggles.
     
    WarHound likes this.
  19. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    3,731
    Likes Received:
    7,012
    The blister was officially labeled as KHD. I thought her weapon had the Pitcher modeled on, but it looks like it’s a standard PanO Combi.

    Laxmee from the SoF box makes an excellent Druze hacker as well, since she has mostly the same armor and is more clearly modeled as a hacker.
     
  20. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2020
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    89
    She does, plus any excuse is good to not paint her in the original, godawful color palette. A shame she isn't sold separately.