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Dart : how and why ?

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Arkhos94, Oct 18, 2018.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    You know, I'm actually not opposed to that type of "excusal" of an, essentially, overpowered unit. The best example would be the Posthumans, where upon much reflection and experience against the army, I actually totally accept that the unit need to exist as sort of a "faction strength" and the faction would be gimped without it.

    However, I don't accept it in the case of the Ryuken Unit 9 profile (the SMG + ODD profile only). JSA pre-uprising was a VERY competitive sectorial, with the Haramaki's being regarded with the same disgust as the Jaguar link which was perceived to be too powerfull for it's cost (pre HSN3). However, Tanko's really didn't change anything in that regard, the only real change was that the new Haramakis (Tankos) was nerfed so it was only very good BS, rather than very good BS and equally as insane CC that the Haramakis sported (before that, they were just flat out better BS13 Magister Knights), which made the Domaru's entirely useless in comparison. The only real faction weakness (which is still present) was that the old JSA had very few options regarding long range options, which the Raiden were suppose to somewhat rectify, with both the Sniper and the HRL profile.

    My main point here is that nothing actually changed that necessitated the Ryuken Unit 9 ODD + SMG profile.
    Furthermore I find that specific profile to give off all the red flags of what constitutes a fundementally broken and "too good" unit profile. When the mentality and broad consensus of a unit turns into "I'll start putting 2-3 in every list and THEN build my list around them", then something is wrong with the model, especially when you lack the counter arguments of why the player shouldn't be inclined to take as many as he can of that unit. Lastly, the profile isn't as much of strong profile as it's a straight up Mary Sue to the point where's it's comical. -6 MOD with no marker state? No worries, got minelayer to slow most threaths down. Armoured targets? No problem, got AP Ammo. Anything else? No problem got Shock Ammo. Those weird and niche profiles that actually counters your SMG, where neither the AP nor the Shock is particularly effective (like the Grunt or Maruder)? NO FUCKING PROBLEM I just so happen to have 2 Breaker Pistols which can give me the same burst as my SMG and just so happens to counter those oddly specific targets that could actually pose a modicum of hardship. Bloat on stats? What bloat? Oh wait literally no stats are bloat and she even seems to posses CC15 which is the point where it's usually hard to guess if she even pays more than 1 point for that. All that and she still costs in the beginning of 20 points.

    I could accept your argument about her being necessary, if only JSA stood in the same shitty situation YJ was in, in the sense that they literally lost 1/3 of their options but that isn't actually the case. JSA simply took everything they had before and straight up left with nothing being removed. Haramakis were reworked to Tankos because their former profile were meme-levels of good, the Raiden just changed name and have no actual change regarding the HRL (The new Ryuken Unit 9 have identical stats except +3BTS), the sniper profile was never used and the Spitfire was almost never justified, so arguments about the SMG profile covering for the loss of those 2 profiles just falls flat on its face.
    Really, what your statement about the Ryuken Unit 9 profile tells me, is that you (and many others I'm sure) have grown so accustomed to this powerhouse unit that you've quickly allowed it to become a crutch for your entire army.
     
    #61 Zewrath, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  2. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    The fact that Ryuken-9 SMG was added to the Sectorial during Uprising is a pretty good indicator that CB felt their role was necessary. Bearing in mind the Haramaki / Tanko nerf, the high cost of Domaru, the extreme confusion of what the Shikami, Daiyokai, Kuroshi and Ninja are all trying to do in their profiles, without really doing anything well...

    I'm really glad the Ryuken-9 exist. Having a unit that doesn't pay obligatory points for CC abilities is really valuable, and JSA really needs mines to help keep those other pricey, vulnerable midfield troops safe.
     
  3. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    I dunno, Rykuen 9 are pretty damn annoying to deal with, but that's kinda the point.

    There are lots of ways to leverage your own troops to handle them.
    -warbands with chain rifles
    -visor (even better with smoke)
    -just smoke (even better with CC)
    -link bonuses (hell I ran the numbers on B2 hollowmen chain colts and it's a great trade off for the hollowmen in cover, chain Myrmidons can do it better for less or just smoke).
    -use your own camo, if they break suppression to discover, well they broke suppression
    -g:synch units like aux bots or Deva bots

    I mean it's not like your list might include these tools to begin with or Dart might come equipped with some of them (or might be immune to shock and possess nwi)..
     
    #63 natetehaggresar, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Spec Fire is another option for dealing with them, bonus points if it can catch their mine and break them out of Suppressive Fire.
     
  5. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    @colbrook once I discovered a mine near a ryuken and shot it with a missle launcher.
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Breaking your comment apart to address each point individually.

    It really wasn't. JSA's strong point pre-Uprising was Oniwaban, which Vanilla YJ also fielded better. JSA was a very average sectorial, with expensive specialists, a severe lack of fire superiority, and struggled to leave its DZ without relying on Oniwaban.

    JSA lost many of its long range options in the rework. The Keisotsu MSR and the Raiden MSR were both dropped, necessitating new options for dealing with long range AROs (ie, the Ryuken.)

    Again, JSA losing many of its long range options, the Raiden HRL getting more expensive, and the fact JSA had always struggled without relying on Oniwaban to leave its DZ is justification enough for the profile.

    Almost no one is playing 3 Ryukens, they really lose effectiveness after two. Maybe this is an indicator that there are specific roles the army doesn't work without? And there are certainly units that are much, much greater violators of this, like Mutts, Post-Humans, Chasseurs, Kuang Shi, Kaeltar/Sukeul/Makaul etc. There is a unit like this in basically every army.

    Weird niche counters like basically any template? This seems to be more of a complaint about SMGs than the Ryuken...

    Pendantry: 24 points is not "in the beginning of" 20. And yeah, look at a strelok ambush camo minelayer. Ryuken seems fine to me. The fact that the Ryuken is the only piece not paying an insane CC tax, and somehow you're more bothered by one unit actually being well-designed and paying the right cost for its kit, than an entire army being taxed to shit paying for skills they will almost never use is... interesting.

    Except YJ really was only taking about 4 of the JSA units, and yes, the unit was necessary, as I explained above.

    No, it doesn't. The purposes of the units are the same -- the Raiden was about leaving your DZ, and the Ryuken is about leaving your DZ.

    Yes, one unit that we don't pay an extra 5-10 points for because of frankly ridiculous CC costing is somehow a "crutch."

    I wish the entire game could be balanced at the level of the Ryuken. No one wants to play a fighting game of all C-tier characters, you want to play a game of all A-Tier characters. I don't want Post-Humans, Ghazi, or literally 1/3 of Tohaa nerfed, I would rather see the entire game balanced up to that level.
     
  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    You know, I was almost tempted to not bother responding to your post but your response was so full of fallacious arguments and dishonesty that I simply couldn't let it pass.

    Please don't, it's a fundementally bad way to address arguments and contra points/arguments are build much better when you're making a fluid and coherent response. Also, you're forcing the person you're responding to, to do the same and it's anoying as well as tedious.

    Right, so you didn't play in any particularly competitive meta then. Also, you're either ignorant or you deliberately ignoring the borderline toxic defensive links of Haramakis for reasons unknown to me. Furthermore, your specialists costs between 10-16 points, as well as the second cheapest CoC in the game, with Oda and Ninja Assault Hacker being the expensive outliers, so stop lying to either me or yourself here. You could argue that the old JSA were very mono build but average powerlevel? No, absolutely not. From the S- to E-tier scale, JSA were a solid A+ and the only reason for them to not be any higher was because they had, often,shitty performance against Steel Phalanx, Tohaa and Ariadna.

    I must confess that normally would make a condescending laughter when reading such a statement but I honestly don't even find this funny. The dishonesty and deception in that sentence is actually incredible. You start off by saying that JSA lost "many" of their long range options, implying multiple profiles, you then go on to mention literally the only 2 options that were removed but you have phrased that sentence in such a way that you make it sound like it's 2 profiles out of many, which clearly isn't the case. Furthermore let's look at your 2 examples (the ONLY 2 examples mind you). The Raiden Sniper was a meme profile, it was such an astonishingly bad profile and never saw any table time what so ever. The Keisotsu MSR was even worse than the Raiden and I honestly believe the only reason you bring him up is because you're grasping for counter arguments. The Keisotsu MSR was not only never picked (ever) but had no reason to exist. If JSA needed long range fireband for such a unit they would either grab a TR REM and put marksmanship on it or simply take the much better HMG profile for the Keisotsu, if you needed firefight engagements for the Keisotsu above the 32" mark, you took the ML anyway. The MSR was flimsy, unreliable on that platform and couldn't deliver neither on the active duty as the HMG nor as an ARO piece as the ML. Those profiles being gone as a justification for the Ryuken Unit 9 model is a laughable proposition at best.

    Which has been utterly debunked as nonsense. As for leaving the deployment zone, the humble Keisotsu HMG, Rui Shi, TR REM, Yujimbo were all fine pieces to leave the DZ with, you not mentioning them doesn't mean they weren't there.
    As for the Raiden, again with the dishonesty. The Raiden HRL got more "expensive" because he actually gained something, a Heavy pistol and +3BTS for 1 point each respectively (also 4-4 MOV), I am unsure as to why you're phrasing it like CB just decided to arbitrarily raise the point cost for no reason.

    Hence the phrasing "2-3 Ryuken Unit 9 models", so you're not actually rebuting anything in that sentence which makes me wonder why you even qouted it. Furthermore, you haven't provided any reason to why 3 Ryuken's are worse than 2 and I'm not simply gonna' take your word for it. I'm not gonna respond to the rest of the sentence as it is nonsensical whataboutism that's entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

    No? Sorry but you appear to have completely missed the point of my complaint of the unit, which is the fact that it was very few, almost none, bad targets. Also this is why I hate people splitting up posts, your context and meaning gets distorted. What do you mean with "Weird niche counters like basically any template?" Are you talking about how templates counters (according to you) the Ryuken Unit 9? Are you talking about that general templates also counters those units I mentioned? What do you mean with that statement? If you mean that any template counters the Ryuken, then allow me to introduce you to a thing called X-visor and the concept of staying of out range of template units, while shooting at them with 0 MOD rangebands.

    I groaned when I had to work with this part because there's so much to pick apart here, that it's not even funny. Yes, 24 is literally the beginnnig of 20, you go from 1-2-3-4 --> 5 --> -6-7-8-9. The first 4 digits are comparably insignificant, when you do rounding, 5 and upwards is the midrange, which also marks the point where you round up. If you're making pedantic then please make it so I don't have to sit down and explain primary school calculus.
    Right, so after I'm gonna' skip another of your whataboutisms and nonsense about CC tax on the Ryuken, you talk about it being well designed, which is the main dispute I have. The unit isn't well designed as much as it's an amalgamation of cheap "cheat" skills. Minelayer is dirt cheap and significant in impact, FD:2 is pseudo infiltration but comes much cheaper for almost same effect, the SMG (needs no explanation), X-visor is dirt cheap but sits on a platform that can abuse it on all its weapons.
    As for CC tax on the JSA, what tax exactly? Your Keisutso would almost be non-impetuous Kuang Shi levels of cheap if they didn't have Combi Rifles and CC to bump their cost of to an acceptable level. The CoC is the 2nd cheapest in the game so no.. then what, your REM's? No? Your Ninjas and Oniwabans? Oh wait, they actually use those things. The Tankos? Kek, so you want 15 points 2 wounds HI with BS13 or what's your point? See, you can complain and make general statements about "CC tax" all you want but when you look at it holistically, the extra CC and the points are there for perfectly valid reasons.

    Doctor, Engineer, Oniwaban & Kitsune, Raiden, Arragoto, Keisotsu as well as being the only army that had room to support the Shikami (which JSA doesn't have). Yeah, sure thing buddy. And of course, what ever your justification for Ryuken Unit 9 SMG has been utterly debunked above (see, this is why it's annoying to split posts).

    Kek, so now we have the Schrödinger's Raiden going on here. The long ranged options of the HRL Raiden and MSR Raiden are now actually also about leaving your DZ zone also. The guy with 4-2 MOV with no infiltration or FD skills... Right..
    I think this a sign that youre looking for justifications for the Ryuken, so you're just goind to convince yourself that Ruyken SMG (a completely different unit) is actually about doing the same thing as the former Raiden.
    I'm going to refer to my former statements about options for JSA to leave the DZ.

    So, ultimately, you actually agree with me. You're flat out admitting that the unit is over the top, so much so that you classify anything that isn't the same standard of what you perceive to be strong units, as C-tier characters and your own precious unit, not something that's actually overpowered, no no, it's merely "well designed" and it's in fact everything else that just needs to step up. In fact we should change all the profiles of this game to meet the level of a small minority units because there's no way those thing would be overpowered, it's just everything else that's bad. Kek.
    I'm just gonna' skip the next post you make about this unit because I clearly struck a nerve mentioning the Ryuken Unit 9 and you just couldn't help yourself justifying it by saying ridiculous statements, like its necessary for the entire army to function. You appear to have a guilty conscience of using the unit, so you must justify for others (but mostly yourself) that it isn't in fact the unit that's too good but in fact everything else that sucks, if they don't meet the same standard.

    Ayways I'm out, I rate your response 2/10 and have a pleasant day!
     
    #67 Zewrath, Jan 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I think I may have a hit a nerd given how you managed to be so passive aggressive in your response...

    I wanted to address this first. The unit is a B+ tier unit, in a C- tier army.

    You're right, no one gets to complain about specialists because all line troops are specialists...

    JSA's real options for specialists are Saito and Ninjas. The second cheapest CoC is irrelevant here, since A: it starts in your DZ and is rarely going to do specialist things, and B: it's really average CoC for its cost, point for point compare it to a Kaeltar or Shukra...

    I am not sure what you are referring to. It's a BS16 missile with no visual mods, pretty much any sectorial can field that. An Orc can do it without AP but w/ +1BS in Varuna for only a little more than 80 points.

    Maybe you have a local player who is just better than you and you can't separate judgement of the army from the player? JSA was nowhere near on par with any vanilla that isn't PanO...

    And let's break down this logic, are you claiming JSA is somehow now an S-tier army? Because that seems to be the logical conclusion of this argument, but it's certainly nowhere near Tohaa or ISS, and definitely not even close to OSS...

    It is strange that you seem to be ignoring that the Rui Shi and TR Rem both got more expensive...

    It's diminishing returns. Do you know any non-Ariadna armies that take 3 minelayers? You will rarely find a table where the third one can find a decent place to cover, unless you're playing something with weird DZs like Power Pack.

    I am pointing out that the Ryuken is weak to templates, you stated that their counters are "niche." Any dude running at a ryuken with a chain rifle is 50/50 going to kill it. Ryuken have the additional weakness of only having their mine for defense when they deploy, no marker state to defend themselves.

    The Ryuken counter one specific type of piece, that I commonly refer to as a "bully piece." These are the beefy BS13-14 pieces with no visual mods who tend to run over things they do well against, or struggle against things they do bad against, in a more pronounced way than others. Pieces like the old Montesa, the Daiyokai, the Taskmaster, etc. (Note I won't include the Mowang or Kriza in this category due to their visual mods.)

    When you say "the beginning of 20 points" most people think 20-22 or 23. Mid-20s would be 24-26...

    If you're making pedantic than please make it so I don't have to sit down and explain primary school calculus.

    The fact we pay for CC up to 23 in an army that barely has the order economy to get into B2B is the tax... Keisotsu should be 8 points, because they perform like they are 8 points. The Ninjas don't use their CC almost ever -- I think I can count on one hand the number of times I actually used the CC on a ninja. The Oniwaban has CC, but it's going to be shooting its BSG 90% of the time because CC is so inefficient comparatively. The Tankos are never going to use that CC skill, and their price is even further artificially inflated by the weird CCW combos they have.

    Doc/Engineer is one unit (it's called the Tokusetsu Butai), the Oniwaban (if you're playing Shinobu you should ask yourself why you want a combi). The Raiden was not good in vanilla and anyone who thinks it was was seriously misguided.. it was a weak ARO piece that people were using as a filler since it was a quick way to fill 1.5 SWC so they didn't feel bad about not using it. Aragoto were inferior to other vanilla options, and the only Keisotsu that should have found itself into lists was the HD since it was the cheapest HD...


    Again, the Ryuken is not nearly the biggest offender in this regard. Sure, it's great, but it's not nearly as optimized as the Zero, or the Kaeltar, or the Sukeul, or the Mutt... Almost every sectorial has at least 1-2 of these units. In JSA's case, it may have been the Oniwaban before, but lets face it, an Oniwaban is just a less reliable Fiday.

    Before we say Ryukens are too good, let's remember this is a game with Mutts, Cobra Zulus, Fidays, Kaeltar, Sukeuls, Makauls, Post-Humans, Netrods, Kuang Shi, Volunteers, Shaolin Monks/Galwegians/Morlocks, Krizas, and all of the bullshit that Ariadna gets. The Ryuken is nowhere near that curve.
     
    #68 meikyoushisui, Jan 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @meikyoushisui
    Expected response. You haven’t addressed anything with actual arguments other than statements that begs the question, more whataboutism and you even start to compare the Haramaki link that doesn’t exist, to a new Varuna link. You gloss over facts, you uronically believe that the Keisotsu weren’t a cheap 9 point filler in YJ Vanilla and think they should be 8 points. Your definition of tax is fucking hilarious and nonsense and totally ignores my argument and you unironically lie about me saying JSA was a S-tier army and most hilarious of all, you legit believe the Ryuken is a B-tier model as well as you unironcally seem to be okay with 14-15 point Tankos. That’s beyond delusional! Wow, I really did struck a nerve. :joy::joy::joy:

    Anyways didn’t actually wanted to respond to you, because you just repeat garbage statements but then you said this:
    My dude, I’m dead serious. You’d be thrown out of any maths teachers room if you ever stood face to face with them and claimed 4 is mid. It literally isn’t. Never was. Stop saying it. The fact that you’re saying it and even try to copy my quote, as if you’re actually in the right is cringe beyond belief. You’re a flat eather denying abject reality at this point and I have no idea why you chose this hill to die on.
     
    #69 Zewrath, Jan 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  10. tomjoad

    tomjoad Member

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    Lol these posts are so bad, but arguing about whether or not 24 is mid 20s or early 20s has the makings of those bodybuilders arguing about how many days are in a week.
     
    ev0k, jherazob, BigBadFox and 3 others like this.
  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Well one is perspective and this is literally just plain math. xD
     
  12. tomjoad

    tomjoad Member

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    I think there's a chance that one of you is less familiar with idiomatic English than the other and that is the entire issue, but I don't care. I want this to be the main point of contention going forward, please.
     
  13. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You were the one that brought up Haramaki links. I was very confused by this, unless they were somehow wildly different before? The Haramaki missile, or the modern Tanko missile, are very standard HI missiles. Pretty much every HI core gets the same thing. Look at Riot Grrls, or Mobile Brigada, or Wu Ming (HRL)... I mostly have no idea why you think Haramaki links are so great....

    Why would you ever take a Keisotsu when you get Kuang Shi? And taking both doesn't seem like a great option in many cases. And yeah, look at the stat line of a Line Kazak and tell me the Keisotsu is a 9 point line troop.

    You said JSA was an A+ army before, and you're complaining that it now has a totally busted unit on top of that. Do you really think old JSA is better than vanilla Haaq, vanilla Nomads, ISS, Tohaa, vanilla Aleph, and OSS? Or is your A+ tier so big that it means nothing?

    Where did I ever say I was okay with 14-15 point tankos?

    The Ryuken is a B+ unit. All of the other ones I named above are A to A+ units. The Ryuken is not anywhere near them.

    I mean, I prefaced it by saying I was being pedantic and you seem to be the only one obsessing over it so much.

    https://www.quora.com/What-age-or-age-range-is-typically-considered-a-persons-mid-20s-Why

    "Colloquially, 24 to 26 is considered to be mid-20s, with 23 being somewhat borderline (because of lower-end skew, see below)."

    Are you a native English speaker? I hate to ask, but it's clear you don't really understand how this term works in English.
     
  14. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Hahahahaha! Is that the source to back up your claim with? :joy::joy::joy:
    No dude, her example is demonstrably wrong so are you, especially her math example. Jesus Christ talk about the blind leading the blind.
    Anyways, you’re starting to bore me so I’m off to bed. Good times man.
     
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Remember, when you can't win an argument, just attack the source.
     
  16. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    so about Dart....

    Is it worth holding her back as your reserve if you are deploying first or is the Posthuman boost there too hard to pass up?
     
    jherazob and natetehaggresar like this.
  17. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I thoroughly debunked literally every point you came with, in which case you doubled down with logical fallacies, false comparisons and non arguments. I didn’t attack the source, I’m stating an indisputable mathematical fact, which I find astonishing that you seem to fail to understand it. It’s almost as astonishing as someone goes to claim a Ryuken is worse optimised than a Zero. Almost.
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I am not sure how this is a mathematical fact? Yes, 25 is in the middle of 20 and 30, but no, it's a fact of the English language that lower 20s is lower than 24.

    Look at your own logic, if there are 5 numbers in the lower 20s, why are there only 4 in the upper 20s?

    And yes, saying "this is your source?" and putting emojis is an attack on the quality of the source. For someone who cares more about being right than what is actually true, you're pretty bad at it...
     
  19. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    I think using her as a counter deployment is a good strategy if you think she can SMG or e/m a high value target(s) within 5 orders of the first turn. Otherwise I use her camo token as a warding measure for the opponent during his deployment.
     
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  20. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Moderator, please take my posts after this down. I should never have mixed it up over here. Apologies.
     
    #80 oldGregg, Jan 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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