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Current state of Yu Jing

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Wyrmnax, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. SpectralOwl

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    A Shaolin and a Hsien HMG tend to be able to take care of most unlinked ARO threats in my general experience. The Kamau in a core link seems like a substantially greater problem, best chance against it might be a rush by the Lu Duan into Heavy Flamethrower range and hoping they shoot the wrong Holoecho, or moving up slowly with Cautious Move orders when it would have Line of Sight. Wiping out attendant Fusiliers with a Tiger would also be effective. Fortunately, when the linked Kamau is available to PanO, we will have the Liu Xing to drop on its head and the heads of its friends.
     
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  2. Stuffist

    Stuffist Well-Known Member

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    What about Nimbus grenades?
    That's something we have access to in some viable lists and I wonder how it would behave vs this dreadful linked Kamau Sniper bastard... So here are the numbers (pls telle me if I'm wrong):

    Seems fair to me. Sure, you need a full team of Wu-Ming, but luckily enough they both carry the HMG and the Nimbus LGL.
    And who refuses to send some incarcerated volunteers to clear their debts at the front? :3
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's a 5-man link, meaning it's not available to a vanilla faction which is what this is about.

    Try Nimbus (from Zhanying or Wu Ming) and have an unlinked Hsien shoot that Kamau.
    Try Nimbus (from Zhanying or Wu Ming) and have Lunah shoot that Kamau with the upcoming changes to Marksmanship LX
    Those two will likely be the best chance of killing a 5-man linked Kamau in a straight up firefight. Otherwise you go to alternative methods and hunt down the support to remove Fireteam bonuses.
     
  4. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    Just to check in here:

    1. Why would someone shoot the 'wrong' Holoecho? They can just Hold against Holoechoes. Think of Holoecho as a weird sort of Camouflage:

    AROs against Holoecho state
    Bear in mind that when reacting to a Holoecho, you may delay your ARO declaration until after the Holoecho declares its second Short Skill.

    However, if you choose to delay your ARO, you may only declare it if the Holoecho revealed itself with its second Short Skill. If the Holoecho does not reveal itself, the reactive trooper loses his right to ARO.


    From this page: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Holoprojector#Holoprojector_Level_2

    2. Remotes can't Cautious Move: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Cautious_Movement

    That said, Lu Duans are great. :)
     
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  5. SpectralOwl

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    They would shoot an echo to stop you taking a free move-move towards their DTW-vulnerable link team. Though if they do shoot the wrong Holoecho, they might eat an MSV1 MK15 on normal rolls. The Lu Duan is really good for those sorts of shenanigans. Good point about the Cautious Move, though. I always forget REMs can't do that for some reason!
    Edit; Nevermind about the Normal Rolls, a Core Link Kamau has SSL2. The more I play this game, the more I despise that skill, it shuts down so much fun gameplay and it's everywhere thanks to Link Teams.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sixth Sense only prevents use of Surprise Shot by the Lu Duan. Delay using Sixth Sense is limited to ZoC only, so if you're in Mk12 range all they can do is: Delay and let you Move-Move; shoot and hope they target the correct Echo; or Delay using Sixth Sense and realize they are out of range and go to Idle as you Move-Shoot or Move-Move

    Once you get close enough to skirt their ZoC, then the Heavy Flamethrower is slightly larger than the ZoC, meaning if they delay using Sixth Sense you can, if you're great at judging ZoC, get a free shot off on them as they stand there idling because you were out of their range.

    Either way, the chance of blanketing them with fire is decent with the Lu Duan, but the trick is getting close enough. The shitty thing is if the sniper picks the correct Echo through smoke before you get close enough, as you'll be taking net BS of 6 shots return fire through the smoke and cover
     
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  7. Stuffist

    Stuffist Well-Known Member

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    Oh, indeed! My bad.

    Then it would be more Nimbus + HMG/HRMC killer for raw power removal:
    or
     
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  8. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    Holoecho is a marker state, so the target always gets a chance to delay no matter how far away they are (like Camo). What you are describing is how it worked in N2, in N3 there's no "which holoecho do I shoot" if you're shooting back since you have to reveal which one is the real one when you shoot.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Nah, the post is a bit poorly formatted, but I'm describing it in N3 terms. Let me divvy that up in more easily readable format (edit: and elaborate on the second point):
    1. You Move, opponent declares Delay vs. Holo2, you Move again, opponent loses ARO because you didn't reveal
    2. You Move, opponent declares Delay thanks to Sixth Sense, one of four general things can happen
      1. you Shoot, but since you are outside ZoC your opponent loses their ARO opportunity because the delay was illegal
      2. you Shoot, but since you are inside ZoC your opponent Shoots back
      3. you Move again, but since you are outside ZoC, same as 2.1.
      4. you Move again, but since your second Move took you inside opponent's ZoC the delay is a valid reaction and they get to respond with an unopposed ARO without any restrictions.
    3. You Move, opponent declares Shoot vs one of the Holoechos, you Move again because the shot was against a fake Echo.
    How it used to work is that the number 1 option on the list above wasn't available meaning most units would need to choose the number 3 option.
     
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  10. SpectralOwl

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    Thank heavens for that piece of rules trivia in your first paragraph, that is going to make dealing with Cores and Tacos much easier.

    Also thanking heavens that if there is Smoke in front of a Kamau it is because the enemy put it there, PanO with Smoke would be horrifying.

    That bit of information in the second paragraph is the sweetest though. I never actually thought about trying to feign for illegal delays to get normal rolls on attacks, and this particular setup would do wonders against my regular opponent's favoured Dakini link. I really need to get a Lu Duan for myself, they seem overshadowed by the Rui Shi but every time they get brought up people find new ways to solve problems with them.
     
  11. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    Where in the rules for Sixth Sense does it overwrite this part of camouflage and hiding causing you to lose your ARO if the marker doesn't reveal? I looked on the wiki and the only mention of combining delay + sixth sense lets you respond out of LoF: it doesn't overwrite the fact that you lose your ARO if you choose to delay and the marker doesn't reveal.

    All Sixth Sense gives you is the right to delay (and shot people behind you): it doesn't prevent you from losing your ARO from the marker state not revealing.

     
  12. SpectralOwl

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    From the exact page you linked:
    • In the Reactive Turn, Sixth Sense L1 allows its user to delay his ARO declarationuntil after the declaration of the second Short Skill of the enemy inside his Zone of Control.
    This is a different type of delay, separate from the Marker State delay. It functions only within Zone of Control, but works against everything and lacks the condition that the enemy must reveal to take the ARO after the delay. However, the Sixth Sense troop would still only be able to respond with AROs permitted against that marker; in the case of Holoecho there are no restrictions, but a Camo token would only allow Discover, Dodge, Reset and Change Facing as usual.
     
  13. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    • However, if you choose to delay your ARO, you may only declare it if the Camouflage Marker revealed itself with its second Short Skill. If the Marker does not reveal itself, the reactive trooper loses his right to ARO.

    The key part there is bolded. This overwrites SSL1's delay: Camo causes him to lose his right to ARO. It doesn't matter where the ARO came from, he loses his right to ARO.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    @ijw seems like your area of expertise
     
  15. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Why should it overwrite the SSL1. You will have two different ways to delay your ARO, one from the marker state and one from SSL1. You will have the choice, which one do you want use.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Why? The rules for reacting to Camouflaged state aren't being used. Sixth Sense lets you delay, with no restrictions.
     
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  17. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    If the rules for reacting to Camouflaged state aren't being used, does that mean I get to declare a BS attack if they don't reveal?
     
  18. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

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    SSL1 says: you get to delay for an ARO.
    Camo says: you get to delay for an ARO.
    Camo also says: if you delay for an ARO, you lose your ARO if marker does not reveal.
     
  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    But that's if you delay using the clause for Camouflaged. That clause is not being used, so can't apply.

    If there is a Camouflaged marker in ZoC, a trooper with Sixth Sense can choose to delay via the Camouflaged rules, OR delay via the Sixth Sense rules.
     
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  20. SpectralOwl

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    No, you do not. Think of it as Sixth Sense granting a special "Delay" ARO that allows you to take another ARO after the enemy completes their second Short Skill, and every trooper in the game having access to another ARO that is unintuitively also referred to as "Delay" which requires the target to be in Marker state and grants an additional ARO if it exits Marker State during its second Short Skill. Perhaps Delay:L2 would be an appropriate nested skill when N4 rolls around.
     
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