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Current state of Yu Jing

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Wyrmnax, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    Paracommandos and Mirage 5 should be in the conversation, as do Garuda. The Spets are expensive, but do horrific things when they show. Diomedes feels like he should be more played, but I am willing to concede he gets outcompeted in faction.
     
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    While some of your comments are valid, commenting on how another player is rubbish while offering your own subjective and potentially rubbish opinion is hilarious.

    Infinity is highly variable, meta dependent, terrain dependent and player style dependent. Maybe OP plays a lot more direct action games and WiP is less valuable.

    You might disagree, but lets leave out subjective dick comparisons on how good someone is at the game when you only have your own limited experience to judge from.
     
  3. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    For a lot of people, 60pts for a Flash Pulse LT ARO piece is not very desirable. If you want your 60pt HI guys to go on the aggressive, SZ is not going to do it for you, and that's a fair way to play. For a bit more of an investment you can get a Hac Tao, you know? Perfectly fair to say "I don't like SZ and I think he's an expensive paperweight in my lists," if that's how you play.
     
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  4. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    I'll just go back to my old saying of "If you can't make it work or don't like the unit doesn't mean they are bad."

    Sun Tze is perfectly viable. Perfect for everyone? No.

    I've gotten a lot of mileage out of Sun Tze. No, he's not a premier attack piece. He is a stupidly resilient leader that can plug holes and works well as a last turn shock piece (people tend to forgot about him and he's reliant enough to shrug off regular ARO attacks).
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think Sun Tze suffers greatly from the scaling issues. 17 WIP doesn't offer a lot of bang for buck, but it's a massive part of his price tag from what I can tell. Most of his abilities are fairly cheap individually, but not the WIP above 15. This makes him a niche profile rather than a mainstay, and I think if he were to drop to WIP 15 we'd lose bragging rights but we'd gain a profile that would get taken as LT... very... often.

    Niche profiles are fine, but not preferable.
     
  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    And I think of too many profiles were three most optimised possible Infinity wouldn't be the same game it is.

    People want perfection until they have it, and realise it's boring.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I get what your saying, but I don't agree that this would make Sun Tze optimized. I think it would put him more on level with Crane or ML Hac Tao - still flawed but more obviously worth the points without bending the entire list around him.
     
  8. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Sun Tze (v1) is great.
    • Strategos 3 is legitimately an excellent ability, and it gets better the better a player one is
    • Advanced Command is nice, an extra CT is nothing to sniff at
    • 2W+NWI+TI+Mimetism is a fucking great package for keeping your obvious Lt alive: I've had multiple games where he's absorbed an exorbitant amount of enemy orders trying to bring him down, which has swung the game in my favour (in one, for example, he was watching over a console my opponent needed to hack to get an advantage - his Flash Pulse and BSG meant my opponent couldn't afford to just bum rush across and give him unopposed shots)
    He's not a Rambo, but he can certainly pull his weight when it comes down to the wire. His stats aren't top of the line, but they're serviceable and his resilience means he can push into the midfield (provided he's supported reasonably, as with any other unit) to provide a bulwark around which you can do other things.

    You definitely need to build a list with him in mind: slapping him in to a list isn't necessarily going to work out great, he's a unit that works best when you consider all of his strengths beforehand.
     
  9. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Answering some comments

    About Red Fury Pheasants - Yeah, a objective grabbing 3rd turn option that has a good gun and also uses your lt order sounds good. Perhaps I should experiment more. BS12 + Burst 4 is not fantastic, but at a time where most of the hard hitters are probably gone is likely enough. I think I might just be a bit spoiled for paying the same for him as I do with a Myrmidon Officer on my main faction ( NWI + ODD + Smoke feels better than +1 B).

    Plus plenty of others pointing out Sun Tze. I still feel that paying 60ish points for what is mostly a defensive piece is too much. But you all bring out great points about him, and his resilience (or in my case - lack of thereof) might be more confirmation bias on my side than anything else. Strategos lv3 is one of the best "get out of jail" abilities in infinity, because reacting to your oponent deployment can be such a great game changer - it is also one of the reasons Posthumans in ALEPH are broken. It might be the case of bringing Sun Tze in again, but this time with a different mindset for what he is capable of doing.


    Ask @DaRedOne for hugs. Hes the one who came up with the idea ^-^.

    Xi is a bit on the expensive side, but yeah, lumping him with Celestial Guard is a oversight on my part. He is very valuable as a area denial tool in a faction that lacks them. Mad traps are good, as is the combination of DTW, decent WIP and Forward Observer. I will still disagree with Celestial Guard - they really should be a couple points cheaper. Guilang Snipers, I feel..... eh, I don't know. MSV1 + Camo is actually great at making them win a ftf, but I've been let down plenty by the pure lack of BS and low B, but then again, they are not overly expensive besides the stunning SWC cost of MULTI Snipers themselves. So yeah, conflicted. Both Combi and Shotgun go around that by giving you better Burst or a better bonus for their rangeband, while being much cheaper.

    >>Watch out for your salt intake, you have had plenty lately.

    For a specialist that is frail, will have to start on your deployment zone and has trouble reaching a objective by itself? Yeah, I am not too keen on paying for it. It is definitely better than CC or BTS, but the problem with CG is the combination of cost inflation on all three atributes that you are least likely to use while still being your bog standard cheerleader chassi.

    Linking in vanilla, how? I do admit however that putting him on the same bucket as Celestial Guard is a mistake. He brings rare area denial to YJ, and forward observer makes him decent in ARO when needed.


    Best shooting AD in the game for their price (If Garuda can't get Marksmanship 2). However, there are other *very* good AD troops in the game. Having 2 wounds can be invaluable, as can be Van Zants ability, or DTW + NWI. There is not best at everything in infinity, circunstances and table themselves can make that 2nd wound more valuable, for example.


    I am not. If you read it again, you will realize that there are only 2 things in the whole game that I think compare with a Hac Tao.
    The first is a Swiss - a direct gunnery upgrade, costing Hac Tao's versatility, better specialist profile and a *much* better Hacking Device for the plataform.

    The second is a Anathematic. A direct gunnery downgrade - that, mind you, only happens on the HMG (Hacker brings plasma. Plasma >>>> +1 BS for killing stuff) for a virtual 3rd wound that can be a better specialist (although with a worse Hacking Device) or can bring a sepsitor as a DTW. I *could* agree with S6 being worse than S2 if the models did not have TO in the first place - both Hidden Deployment and Marker state helps a lot in avoiding the hassle that moving around S6 can be, and S6 is actually more mobile than S2 in plenty of spaces due to the being able to vault over much higher stuff.

    Depends on the oponent, table and mission. The thing about the Yan Huo is that if you need TAG firepower, he can do it for 2/3rds of the price. On something like Deadly Dance, where you will likely have to down a TAG, it can be invaluable. Against most defensive Link teams, having a Huo around means they can't hope to just stop you with their cheap long ranged firepower. Having the option of bringing one means that the enemy can't simply hope that you will not be able to brute force a situation. Situational? Yes. Bad? Hell, no.


    Diomedes problem is that he is simply too expensive, but I agree with all others. Yuan Yuan need to be added simply because of the opportunity cost to drop one of them down - almost none. Like I said about Tigers - they are the best gunfighter AD, but that is not necessarily what you need on all situations. Depends a lot on what you need your AD doing, and where you need to drop him to do it.

    Hell, depending on the situation the best AD in the game is a Tomcat Engineer.
     
    #49 Wyrmnax, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Given that we have confirmation that we're getting a new Engineer profile that can be part of any IA link team, should be very nice to keep the damn EM scourge under control.

    Problem is, I'm expecting the Haidao to be 1W+NWI and ARM3, not an actual Zuyong profile.
     
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  11. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    I would rather prefer him 1W NWI MI. That will make him, at least, won't make him go into shutdown even after getting struck by a EM grenade.

    It would look extremely funny when he get up after being hit by EM grenade, surrounded by hilarious posed Zuyongs, Immobilized and just rolling their eyes.
     
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  12. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Looking at the unit insignias, the Haidao looks more closely related to the Hac Tao (in IA) and Tiger (outside IA), so I think you're probably right that it'll be 1W+NWI "HI". I doubt they're make it an MI, after they revealed they're willing to completely fuck around with the HI designation for the sake of a claim.

    @ObviousGray - I doubt it'll be MI. CB are clearly willing to completely sacrifice gameplay for a shitty HI with no HI benefits (but all of the downsides). I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's MI, but I won't hold my breath.
     
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  13. SpectralOwl

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    I'm actually expecting the Zhencha to be alone in its dying-to-Shock-and-Viral situation. The skills and REM filler we've seen suggests IA won't be as order starved as some have been dreading, so there isn't a real need to keep costs down, especially with the Mech-Engineer available as a budget option. The Engineer skill within a link is a big deal; HI heavy lists relying on Tactical Sense and command skills for orders are going to really hate being Isolated. In addition, it synergises well with the REMs that can be brought in-being able to reliably repair a Pangguling or Son-bae will be very helpful when something needs to be left out for ARO and you don't want to risk a trooper.

    I really don't think the Hai Dao will be MI. This army will have to avoid tight spaces like the plague near the end of its turn to avoid E/M templates if it wants to do well. That said, E/M is a better weakness then ALEPH's Shock and Viral vulnerability or Tohaa's Fire, we can fix IMM/2 and Isolated but we can't fix Dead.
     
  14. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Better swallow my anti-expectation pills. :(
     
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  15. Warhydra

    Warhydra Well-Known Member

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    I expect Haidao to be 1W NWI with bioimmune like Liu Xing. They wear similar armor.

    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    It will be awesome. I expect they will be HI and I'll take a Zhencha profile to keep costs down.

    It'd be nice for hacking to be a discount but I hardly think it's a deal breaker.

    If the nasty hacker is hacking the engineer, all the more power to him as it gives the other models time to move and nuke him.

    E/M will be a danger but damn, these links sounds like they need atleast some downsides
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that is about all I'm expecting out of it. I had really been hoping for Zuyong statline with engineer and D-charges, but that was before the Liu Xing and Zhencha were spoiled.

    In an EM-heavy meta (or against JSA), you're probably going to have to take a Zanshi Engineer as well as a Haidao. You can't be in a link with a helperbot, and if the Haidao get's EM'd it wouldn't be able to move a left-behind helperbot far enough to fix things, anyway.
     
  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    "Limited experience" Top kek! :joy::joy:


    Cute. Although point taken, I could stand to improve my approach in my original statement and I apologize for that.

    Comms Center, Deadly Dance, Engineering Deck, The Grid, Power Pack, Safe Area, Supremacy, Tic-Tac-Toe. That's nearly half the missions in this game where you can reach an objective on literally 1 order. What is this bizarre fantasy where your button pusher needs to cross half the table with constant ARO's raining down on you from the start? Sounds like a massive failing on the table. Besides when ever you have 2 points to spare, there's literally no reason not to upgrade the standard supportware hacker, wich actually benefits quite a big deal from the upgrade.

    *Also, sadly the CG have the same CC stats as Zhanshi, so they are paying 2 points for extra BTS and WIP

    I never said he could link in Vanilla, my point is that he's decent to be a link booster so there's not really a point in reviewing him in that negative fashion, although he's still a good choice for DZ defense, with templates and perimeter, although I agree with the point that he's not really that attractive in Vanilla

    Take the Noctifier ML. I call him the best TO ML ARO piece in the game. What about the Hac Tao or the Swizz Guard then? DTW, 2 wounds, "There is not best at everything in infinity, circumstances...." etc. etc. I don't give a crap about any of those things because the Noctifier is so cheap compared to the other 2 that you have plenty of points to cover something else. The same is true for the Tiger Soldier, he delivers so much for so little that quite often you can afford to bring 2, easily, trivialy even. This isn't true of the other AD you mentioned, either due to cost or limited AVA. For this reason the Tiger Soldier is simply better. Or rather, the best in terms of value.

    I stand corrected then. Agreed on all points.

    Eh, let's just agree to disagree on that. I have never seen him on any top table and with good reason, he's cute for some specific mission or something but he isn't consistent for a tournament, which why he isn't fielded with players from the upper echelon.
     
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  19. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I think one factor which is often overlooked in such discussions is that Yu Jing is still in the top 3 Infinity factions for active turn firepower.

    If your opponent is leaving out AROs to threaten your specialists then you can kill them and laugh while you do it. Then you waltz over with your high Wip specialist and press the button while sneering imperiously at the bullet riddled corpses of those who dared to oppose the will of the State Empire.
     
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  20. Shinen

    Shinen Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, i never gave it mouch though because i was under the impression, that every sectorial is good or very good in aktive turn because of the linkteam bonuses and mixed linkteams are now much more common (Veteran Kazak+Kazak, Morat Suryat+Venguards, Varuna, ISS). Vanilla is a bit different but it looks like that except von PanO (the real shooty boyz), every faction has at least some good shooting options with high BS or MODs.