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Current state of Yu Jing

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Wyrmnax, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    This is going to be wall of text. I will try to keep spoiler blocks to organize my thoughs and be able to keep it comprehensible.

    This is also going to be full of my OPINIONS. Watch out for your salt intake, you have had plenty lately.

    Also, this is PRE-INVINCIBLE ARMY. I will touch on what we have from Invincible Army, but we still do not have everything from there yet, and I am looking only at the main vanilla faction.

    And again, this is dealing with Vanilla YJ. ISS is another army, mostly self-suficient.

    Bao Troops - MSV2 is good. Biometric Visor 2 is decent, although *very* situational. MSV2 also tends to be quite expensive. In any other armies, Bao would be usable simply due to MSV, but YJ has access to what is probably the best MSV2 carrier in the game in the Rui Shi, so Bao is underwhelming at best.

    Celestial Guard - Guards are standard LI that get extra CC, BTS and WIP. And they pay for all 3. Those are probably the worst 3 characteristics to pay for in the game, especially when the bonus is so piddly. CC 13 ->14 is a complete waste, as is BTS on something that isn't hackable. WIP is marginally useful on the LT roll, and is decent on specialists, but Guards do not make good specialists because they are frail Light Infantary that have to be in your deployment. And they don`t have access to Doctors / Engineers, where they could actually use that extra WIP through bots. The only saving grace is the Kuang Shi control Device and Smoke LGL, both coming on the same profile.

    Xi Zhuang - Suffer from the same problems as Celestial Guard, bit too expensive, but Mad Traps do make a decent perimeter.

    Imperial Agent Pheasant Rank- CoC is good.
    Good CoC comes either cheap (Kempei) or capable of combat (Myrmidon Officer). Phasants have the worst of both worlds. The non-coc profiles aren't even worth looking at, and CoC is only worth it if you plan on a fightning lt anyway. It is still better than having no coc access, but yeah...

    Kuang Shi - 33pts and 0.5 swc for 5 regular orders and smoke. Kuang shi are cheap, disposable and regular. They can do a good job at keeping your drop zone safe through templates, and provide a decent amount of cheap regular orders. Very good unit overall.

    Mech-engineers - Standard backfield engie. This guys could have really used the wip 14 bumpt instead of Celestial guard. Ok unit. Also pay the CC tax, as pointed to me.

    Zanshi - Zanshi are Light infantary that pays extra for 1 extra point of CC - the worst possible stat they could gain. They are not as terrible as Celestial Guard, but they could definitely have gone without the price bump. No SWC lt is ok, at least.

    Zhanying Imperial Agents - Nimbus is situational at best. Sensor and SSlv2 are good, as are mad traps. Problem is that the profiles are too cramped, bring too much and do not have the base that is needed for them to survive. In the end you are paying 30ish points for a BS12 1W light infantary that bring almost nothing you couldn't have done for 10 pts less.

    Zhanshi Yisheng - Standard backline doctor. Ok. As pointed out, do have the CC tax too.

    Sun Tze v.2 - I think that Sun Tze is trash. Especially v.2. Strategos 3 is great, Advanced Command is also. WIP 17 is good, especially with a flash pulse.
    But you are paying 60ish points for that. Your lt is obvious, that pricepoint means you are either using him aggressively or you are dumping 1/5th of your army and he is not really that hard to get killed off too, meaning you will want to bring CoC ( the only one you got - expensive) to not be knocked into Loss of Lieutnant on by round 2.

    Tiger Soldiers - Tiger soldiers are the best AD gunfighters in the game. Not the best AD, as having a 2nd wound can make a *lot* of difference.
    With ITS10 change to AD, Tigers became better. 60% of chance of dropping on the perfect position is much better than 60% of chance of dropping on a decent one, and being in a perfect position with BS13 + mimetism + the right weapon is *evil*.

    Dao Fei - Camo, Infiltrating, HI. Yeah, could be worse. Expensive, yes, but one hell of a attack piece.

    Hac Tao - It is hard to compare a Hac Tao. There are only 2 units in the game it can be compared to:
    Swiss Guard - Same pricepoint, gain BS, loose the DTW. Swiss guard is also monodirectional like most things PanO - it shoots. The extra Tao profiles and dtw give him more flexibility at the *slightly* lower effective shooting

    Really, it goes from 71.65% to inflict a wound on a BS14 Arm4 troop in cover down to 68.9%.

    The other comparable profile is a Anathematic. Which is better at everything but shooting, but you are looking at 15 pts more.

    And the only other surprise missile launcher in the game is the noctifier, which is actually better at that job due to tying up much less points, but is much less versatile and survivable otherwise.

    Hsien Warriors - Hsien are a bit off. They have a direct comparation on Aquila Guards, who trade smoke support and stealth for a better MSV and BS. Aquila are bad, because the expense of MSV2 and 3 can only be fully justified when using smoke support. Hsien would be ok on a faction that carries smoke around like YJ, except that you have a *much* cheaper active turn piece that does the same on the Rui Shi. Nothing specifically wrong with the Hsien (besides me thinking that MSV2-3 cost too much, period), but you just have a much more cost effective way to do the same.

    Imperial Agents, Crane Rank - Cranes are fantastic units from Military orders. Decent stats, decent weapons, good in CC ( providing Stealth to boot ), decent gear compliment overall with Sensor and X-Visor being both useful and not too expensive. The problem is that the sum of all the parts make him *very* expensive, especially since he does not have anything that reduce his cost like most Military Order knights ( frenzy / Impetuous) He falls into the Father Knight / Asura conudrum - is he good? Yes, definitely. But you can really use a model that costs at least much less to do exactly the same, 90% of the time.

    Shang Ji Invincibles / Wu Ming Assault Corps / Zuyong Invincibles - This is a big problem with YJ, in my view. They are Generic Power Armored troops, Generic Power Armored troops +1 and Generic Power Armored troops +2. Options are very similar among the 3 troops, but you pay a hefty premium for +1 arm and +1ph or +3bts, +1ph. That means that you usually end up looking at the Zuyong to get what you need, and only in case it does not have a specific profile that you want you look up. It basically means that only HRL wu-ming ever see play, and pretty much no Shang Ji sees the table as the only troop without equivalent down the line is the hacker, and you have better options for that.

    Sun Tze - Again, I think Sun Tze sucks. Reason is the same as for the v.2 - Too expensive to be kept back so he will need to be fighting, and you will need to pair it up with your expensive CoC to not end up in loss of lieutnant. HI Sun Tze is much more resilient, but that BS12 kind bites really hard at the offensive power of a 65pt piece. And that is the only profile remotely useful anyway - you wont pay for Strategos 3 and not make him the lt, and he has no reason for a boarding shotgun when he carries 2 nanopulsers.

    Su-Jian - The most unique YJ unit, probably the best one too. It has everything you want in a bruiser - mobility, range, decent firepower, very good survivability. Would it be better with a vision mod? Yes. But then, even a Sphinx could be made better. It is a great unit, and one of the best bruisers all around.

    Yan Huo Invincibles - Subtely itself. There are only 2 profiles, despite what it says - HRMC for active turn duty, and Neurocinetics for ARO duty. I am not particularly found of the Neurocinetics, because I think it is too expensive for a ARO piece, but 2BS 14 Missile launchers with ARM5 in cover does make a hard argument. Invincible army likely has them linkable, and since I doubt that HRMC will be ( Burst 6 is taboo in Infinity, for good reason), it is likely that the Multi HMG can gain some traction. Overall a great piece, bringing TAG armament to the table for 2/3rds of the price of a full blown TAG.

    Guijia - YJs own TAG. It is as vanilla as it gets, with all the problems of a TAG (1/3rd of your list for it alone, plus a hefty amount of points in support, does not bring weaponry that much heavier than your standard HI - even worse against Yan Huo - and has a few things that will absolutely cripple your army - EM, Adhesive and Possession to name a few). TAGs are currently much better in ITS10, with specialist pilots and fatalities, but I personally still feel that Main Battle Tags are simply too vulnerable for what they bring.
    It is not a bad, great or unique TAG, but it is one nontheless, and some missions really like one of those. Could really use a rework to be more unique and fun.

    Chaiyi - standard flash pulse bot. AVA 1 kinda hurts, but thats why you carry Kuang Shi

    Husong Yaokong - Standard TR bot. Nothing special

    Son-Bae - Standard SML bot.

    Weibing Yaokong - Standard Sat-lock / Sensor bot

    Yaozao - Servant bots. Again, standard

    Lu Duan - Finally, something unique. Lu Duans are fantastic, Holo 2 gives them a very nice surprise (and bonus MOD for surpirse shot), weapon selection is good and they carry their own repeater to gain hacking support. MSV1 is a nice bonus, but its not why you pick this REM

    Rui Shi - Most cost effective MSV2 unit in the game. It has *everything* if wants - Good gun, good BS, Repeater for hacking support. One of the best 3 combat REMs in the game, together with Bulleteer and Q-Drones.

    Guilang Skirmishers - Great anti-skirmisher unit. Camo + MSV1 is great at clearing the mid table ( Just ask Dart). He does not have the 2nd wound that she does, but Combis give him a much better effective range to stay away from possible mines, and comes at a much cheaper price. Not the cheapest skirmisher around, but a very good one.

    Kanren - I really like Kanrens. Holo2 is always fun, and you have plenty of useful profiles - KHD, Mad Traps and Minelayer being favorites of mine. Slightly on the expensive side, but very useful.

    Ninjas - TO camo KHD. On a HI heavy faction. Thats all you need, thats what they bring.

    Shaolin Warrior Monks - Standard fare throwaway warband. Not the best (They are not Ghazi), but *much* more useful than not having disposable troops in the first place. Again, only the chain rifle profile exists.

    From Invincible Army reveal:

    Mowang ( ARM5, 2W + NWI, Mimetism ) - Looks like another bruiser. BS13-14 + Mimetism + Burst 4 is great, and the unit looks like it will cost around 50+ points. Looks pretty good, but it is in a price point where YJ does not lack alternatives.

    Liu Xing - 2W (effectively) AD troops. Less effective at shooting than Tigers, Much more open espaces to drop to because of that 2nd wound. I am particularly impressed with him, even without seeing what his explode will bring. Having a possible 2W drop troop on the other side makes defending your deployment *much* harder.

    Zencha - Not particularly impressed here. Climbing plus is nice, but 1W + NWI is not that great in the midfield ( And I play with ALEPH / Dasyus plenty). In the middle of the table, everything has shock - be it mines or smgs. Climbing plus is great, But you are basically a naga that got Climbing Plus and dogged bumped to NWI while picking up the trait of being hackable due to being HI for a slightly bump in cost. Not sure I like that trade, as midfield is also where good hacking armies will have their hacking network set up, and against a lot of the threats in the middle your NWI is just bloat.

    Overall, my feeling about current YJ is this:
    There is plenty of good stuff there. But good stuff in YJ tends to be on the expensive side. There is a distinct lack of "decent enough" stuff at the not such a high price mark - stuff that can do what you need done, but costs 30ish points. The real problem is that most of the throwaway stuff in the army is inflated - and that is exactly where you don't want inflated prices. There is no problem paying 1 extra point for useless CC capability in a TAG, that already costs over 80 points. There is a problem when that is on a line trooper, where that capability has exactly the same use but bumps said trooper price by 10% of its total. The real saving grace of having orders in YJ comes from the fact that Kuang Shi are great at actually protecting your deployment zone from intrusions, so they are very cheap orders that you will want to be bringing in anyway, instead of standard almost useless Cheerleader Infantary.

    Loosing JSA was rough. Very rough. YJ lost most of its melee capability, as well as most of its useful mid-price stuff. The army ended up with a lot of cheap stuff - that has its price somewhat inflated - and a good amount of the really good really expensive stuff - with nothing in the middle. I think that CB could have handled the Uprising better, having the IA release closer and maybe even using it as the player campaign, but the way it was done is already done. It does however meant that ever since that YJ has had some really large holes in the faction.

    I have a friend around here that says that there are two factions in Infinity that when someone new starts the game with them they should get a special prize with the first buy - A hug for a YJ box, and a punch in the stomach if he started Haqqislam. Can't say I have much to argue.

    Yu Jing works.
    It is not in its best shape. But it still works as a faction. It still has one of the best, cheapest deployment zones in the game, it has plenty of firepower to move whatever needs moving, and it has enough smoke access (and, to a lesser extend, nimbus) for when there is something that is really better off ignoring. It has quite a few unique or rare combinations, and almost all of them are good. The real problem right now is a lack of most stuff that is not either cheerleader material or very top heavy.

    And the diferentiation between the bog-standard Wu-ming, Zuying and Shang-ji. I really wanted to have a reason to use the "better" HI, but thats a pet-peevee of mine with what I think is useful not lining up with how CB calculates miniature points.
     
    #1 Wyrmnax, Nov 11, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  2. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm. Reading your take on the units, I fear you might be disappointed with the direction IA takes. I doubt it'll replace JSA in the areas you've listed, and I don't think the direction the sectorial takes will fit into such a reductive scheme, if the Zencha and Liu Xing are anything to go by.
     
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  3. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Dual-Wield on the forum posting strikes again...
     
  4. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Oh, it won't replace JSA. Of that I have no doubt. That ship has sailed, and I doubt YJ will be the melee faction - JSA, ALEPH and even CA and Ariadna have a better grasp on that right now.

    But in fact, both Zencha and Liu Xing go directly on where I think current YJ lacks a bit - some mid-high expensive troops that are capable of pulling their weight. The one that actually does go against that is Mowang - expensive beatstick that YJ already has plenty of.

    Pretty excited about IA, tbh. Not only because it is new (and pretty), but because it might cover some of the holes left in YJ in a very non-standard way. I am on the firm though that CB has really started getting their touch very right on the new sectorials, ever since they started with Druze. Sectorials have been fun, exciting, engaging, non-standard and not really OP.
     
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  5. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I fully expected waterfalls of salt after that intro but nah, yeah thats a pretty solid summary of where yu jing is at.

    I'm very excited for what IA brings as it only really needs to bring 2-3 solid profiles for vanilla for me to be a pretty happy camper. I'm already finding spots for the zhencha in my typical lists, and I've found a reason to field a liu xing, although he will take a bit of convincing to keep his slot.
     
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  6. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    I liked YJ before the IA spoilers, and I honestly think ISS is both powerful and fun. Having tested the Zhencha a bit I can say that it's a fantastic unit, (even though the salt rivers flowed with the tears of those complaining it didn't have Shock Immunity) and It adds a lot to my excitement for IA with the AVA 4 for it.

    Sure, the new sectorial lacks some things as of now, but it's all in the dark. We are still missing plenty of unit reveals and new unit profiles... I'm just really pumped up about IA as a whole, and it can only mean good news to YJ to get new toys to play with.

    Edit: grammar.
     
    #6 Joametz, Nov 11, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  7. SpectralOwl

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    I agree pretty much completely with you here. Only things I'd say are off in the unit analysis are that the Hsien has his place due to second wound for crit defense and HMG LT profile, and that the Shang Ji HRL is in my experience better then the Wu Ming- It's six more points, but brings a Cube for healing and the BTS is sometimes useful.
     
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  8. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Good thread! Want to keep this updated.

    #WeAreStrongerWithoutThem

    Bro @mittenninja , get over here! XD
     
  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Yeh! The amount of times my Rui Shi just eats a crit and dies is too damn high.
     
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  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, no, this isn't the case. While V2 really does suck ass I agree, V1 is still very strong and doesn't require a Pheasant with him.

    While Uprising was an indirect nerf thanks to Shinobu, his frequent partner departing, Yu Jing does not lack for highly cost effective rambo machines to use in her stead.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't actually put him on the table much given that you forgot about his other really good trait, which is Advanced Command, and that you're assuming that he's an offensive piece. He's not, he's an ARO piece.

    Sun Tze has a WIP17 Flash Pulse. This is extremely aggravating. Nothing quite like a Dog Warrior going "I smoke on a 19," and you responding, "I Flash Pulse on a 20" and suddenly the Ariadna player realises there's a really good chance they both don't get their smoke grenade and their dog gets stunned. Secondly Mimetism, 3 wounds, Armour, and Total Immunity means it is very, very hard to put Sun down in one order and even effective native BS14 pieces like Su Jians or link Missile Launchers struggle to even inflict a single wound at less than 40% success rate per order, and if you take a wound, or two, you can just opt to fail a guts check and move out of LOF. Sun is great at causing your opponent to waste a bunch of orders trying to either avoid or get past his flash pulse, he's basically a Warcor on roids.

    People really do not like being forced to waste orders dicking around with Sun V1, because they know they're not gonna kill him because he's too hardy and you can and will abuse Guts checks to keep him from going down. It only gets better on missions where there's a saturation zone and active pieces suffer -1 Burst.

    Side note, really good piece at discovering camo markers particularly those that stand around waiting to ARO like Ryukens, Tank Hunters, Lunah, Intruders etc. Discover+Discover has an 80% success rate at 32" against a camo marker in cover.

    Next Strategos level 3 really is what you make of it, probably one of the more difficult rules to get the most value out of because it requires you to understand what you're building with an army list, and to autistically remember LT profiles, points, and SWC values for opposing armies. Being able to see your opponent's entire deployment, figure out where all his guns are and what he's hiding, gives you a massive advantage going into the game.

    Going first it allows you to exploit gaps in their deployment to punish them hard with pieces like the Dao Fei. If you can find a weak spot to crack open a flank in the deployment zone the Dao Fei can and will just shoot down their entire deployment line and mow models down. If they try to counter by over deploying defensively and grouped up it both gives you more run of the board to do the mission, and also makes them highly vulnerable to warband spam. 5 Command tokens means you can gain alot of ground for warbands with coordinated orders. I've had games where I pick off some TR bots, place a smoke grenade to block a particular cross table diagonal fire lane, then 3 command tokens later 4 monks have run 24" across the table into the opponent's deployment zone and absolute hell breaks loose over there.

    The other thing Strategos does, and this is more interesting in my opinion, is it allows you to build very, very good lists that actually like to go second in missions while still retaining the ability to deliver powerful rambo attacks if they go first. You can avoid alot of significant incoming damage by being able to see everything your opponent has to put down, and then being able to place expendable shit like monks in the way of pieces like Fidays and stuff, while keeping your key pieces away from enemies like that.

    I actually don't mind the non Neuro ML profile. It's not an every game piece, but he'll hands down win The Grid by himself practically, and played once in a while as a meme piece, especially if you hold him in reserve, throws people off their game given that Vanilla Yu Jing do not tend to pack much in the way of circular blast templates since the Raiden were removed.
     
    #10 Triumph, Nov 11, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  11. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    I largely agree with the assessments. Main differences would be:

    CG: FO and Hacker are also pretty decent. The former is a far better defensive piece than the zhanshi FO for just a point more. The latter is pretty solid, only really held back by lack of device upgrades. Comparing to securitate makes me want to cry.

    Xi: is a pretty good bargain bringing a specialist with perimeter weapons and direct template.

    Yisheng and Gongchen: worth pointing out they too suffer the CC tax and are 1 point more expensive than comparable counterparts.

    Sun Tze: I think he's worth it. Dude is an outright tank on top of his command skills.

    Hac Tao: The Missile Launcher loadout is probably the weakest and least versatile of the TO missile launchers. It's really pigeonholed as a long ranged ARO piece while the Swiss Miss plays Halo with its light shotgun and the Noctifer can rip things up with its Ass pistol. Thankfully that's the only time the Hac Tao really falls behind its counterparts.

    Also Yu Jing has a real problem controlling the board on reactive.

    Yes, we can contest at close range with lots of cheap chain rifles, but that doesn't save you when a foe comes rolling through a marker state and/or smoke. Sure we can trade to stop the bleeding, but that's problematic when that troop is specifically there to suicide itself and take out your KS order pool.

    We've got plenty of MSV2 but suppression is kind of required for reliability /survivability and you can't have it up first turn.

    Our only access to mine dropping minelayers are Le Muet who would sacrifices his MSV and Guilang who is both expensive and low enough AVA that they really want to be doing other things.

    Perimeter weapons could help, but the already expensive Zhanying and Kanren need to give up their specialist profiles. The Pheasant version clocks in at an astounding 36 points. Only Xi is really affordable.

    Finally lets talk about AROs in general. The big guns, the Yan Huo and Hac Tao missile launchers are 1/3 SWC and over 1/6 of total points that are super pigeonholed into that role. That's at least 1/2 of your elite slots taken up. The Ninja MSR is somehow tied for most expensive TO MSR (with Dasyu) and tied for worst shot at BS 11. Lunah is solid but would have sacrifice her surprise shot and 5 points more expensive than a Cateran. Everything else are pretty much universal options. In short, it's expensive, limited, and/or nothing special.

    Another lack in capability is lack of options to bypass MSV2+. Luckily we're generally packing enough heat to just brute force our way through. White Noise or Eclipse would be handy dealing with that Symbio Gao Rael though.
     
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  12. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    I mentioned it in the Mowang speculation thread, it would be nice to have an in-house hacker with access to White Noise. The Mowang would be beast in both Vanilla and IA.
     
  13. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for chopping up your post, gonna answer to these points about Sun Tze.

    Mind you - I do agree with pretty much everything you mention about him, its just that I probably value it a bit differently than you.

    I did not forget Advanced Command. Its just that, if you are bringing Sun Tze then you are bringing him as lt because f strategos ANYWAY, so you will always be getting Advanced command. Sorta like not mentioning that you are bringing NWI when you are putting down a Dasyu - its just gonna be there and is part of the profile.

    He being basically a warcor on steroids... yeah. He is fantastic. But he costs 60ish points. I always though that is a *lot* of points to put down on a mostly ARO piece, and one that can be safely ignored by a well placed smoke. Its not that WIP 17 flash pulse is bad ( it is one of the best anti-rambo tools in the game), its just that he is just too expensive. I do agree however that he is plenty hard to put down in one order - probably one of the hardest units in the game to do so withouth a linked combi viral.

    As for strategos3, I think it is one of the most powerful rules on all of infinity. *Many* games are lost on the deployment, and strategos3 can almost eliminate that by allowing you to deploy wisely. How to deploy is probably the hardest thing to learn in the game, and strategos does wonders to mitigate that.

    Chopped your post to answer to these points:

    The more I play, the more I find that I do not need guns on ARO, I need forward observers/flash pulses. Or camo. ARO game is not about killing stuff, it is about making the enemy not have free reign on the 1st round. Having to go through a couple of flash pulses ( that will ruin any rambo's turn) or camo ( that could potentialy be a very deadly threath) blunts a lot of the attack. It is also why I do not tend to put too much value on very expensive ARO pieces like the Yan Huo or Hac Tao ML, even though I can see that they are worth it in particular circunstances.

    But yeah, YJ strong suite has never been the midfield game. On that I agree.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    If they're throwing smoke they're probably not running at you and shooting your shit up, that's more or less what you're asking for here. Burn orders and buy time so your your own pieces can go to work.

    You pay a premium for what you get, but fortunately Yu Jing is able to put alot of cost effective bodies on the table despite that. You can pretty easily put Sun Tze and a Dao Fei on the table and still spam the table with a 19 body list.
     
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  15. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Well, good point.
     
  16. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    I'd argue the red fury profile is very good and seriously underrated. Specialist with SWC weapon are very unusual (there's the raktorak and... that's it?), and that alone makes it a very effective 3rd turn pusher who can actually get the job done. Also, thanks to CoC, he should probably be the lieutenant at this point and one order is sometime all you need to wrap things up.

    Sure, it's not a stellar gunfighter, and when everything's alright you won't even need him, but it's the kind of unit you're really happy to have when things are going south, orders are scarce, and you need your specialist to fight his way to the objective on his own. Most armies would assign tasks like those to a back-up fireteam (even if it's just a duo), so being capable of doing it in vanilla is really nice.
     
  17. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Hey, just wondering what you mean by viral combi - and whether you think BTS 6 is significant enough against Viral ammo at 13 Damage?

    I'd also say Free Agent is pretty handy for a late-game specialist cleaning up in multiple combat group lists.
     
  18. PreacherSaul

    PreacherSaul Active Member

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    Red Fury Pheasant is a great sweeper.
     
  19. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    The marker/HD gunners are more late turn AROs threats, forcing your opponent to be more cagey and not just push their pieces forward. This especially comes into play vs fireteams who are extremely mobile and you want to shoot at the non fireteam leads.

    I love flashpulse a lot, but it doesn't do much if the opponent is simply moving into position for the next turn.

    As far as camo markers, I find due to our prices, we can't field enough to really force our opponents to stumble, just ensure our individual troops personal survival. Which plays into the hands of models like Samaritans and Krakot.

    I'm left scratching my head as to what to do when a full Myrmidon team wants to throw a smoke and keg party on my doorstep besides pray I get to have my turn.

    Rare, but not quite that rare.
    Mostly TAGs, Taqeul but also characters:
    DeFersen - Spitfire
    Thracymedes - LRL
    Unknown -Molotov
    Vassily - T2 sniper

    Sakiel, Ectros, or Taqeul in a Triad most like. The ability to force up to 8 saves per order is a real threat unless you are BTS9 + cover. Probably not going down in a single order, but enough to give pause.
     
    Wyrmnax and Sedral like this.
  20. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, thats it, pretty much. Although now with TAK, linked T2 is also capable of taking down Sun Tzu.

    upload_2018-11-11_19-19-5.png

    upload_2018-11-11_19-20-5.png

    Neither are great chances - and Sakiel are actually less effective than I expected. But both are possible. T2 and viral is a bitch, in general. ( Plasma too, but Total immunity goes around that)