Exactly. It replaces it with a single penalty. "By placing the center of the Template behind the enemy, you can bypass all MODs from Partial Cover (-3) and TO or ODD (-6), replacing them with one single Speculative Fire MOD (and whatever Range MODs are applicable)."
Point 3) is countered in the Spec Fire Rules. The Wiki states: "Speculative Fire with Template weapons can avoid MODs by Partial Cover, the CH Special Skill, ODD... by placing the Template so it is not centered on the target." Also "By placing the center of the Template behind the enemy, you can bypass all MODs from Partial Cover (-3) and TO or ODD (-6), replacing them with one single Speculative Fire MOD (and whatever Range MODs are applicable)." So a net -6 MOD to the skill regardless of LOF, CH, TO or ODD. It's pretty clear guys. Read the whole Spec Fire page it covers all of these issues. I have yet to see anything that states you can't target a troopr in a Camo state, in fact it states you can AVOID the MOD introduced BY that state.
http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Camouflaged Enemies cannot declare Attacks against a trooper in the Camouflaged state without previously Discovering that trooper, or declaring Intuitive Attack. Nothing in the Spec Fire rules override the above, in fact it doesn't even mention the Camouflaged state at all!
It lets you ignore the mods from partial cover and camo. It does not let you ignore that you cannot target a marker.
The Camouflaged state doesn't apply any MODs to BS Attacks, only to discover, you're confusing it with the skill "Camouflage and Hiding Level 2: Camouflage", which is a separate, though related, rule.
It specifically states you can avoid the MOD introduced by the CH skill when using a Template Weapon, since you target a location instead of the trooper. Top of the page "This Common Skill allows the user to execute a BS Attack against a target outside LoF or, if he has a suitable weapon, to choose a location other than the target as the center of the attack." A suitable weapon being a template weapon, ie Grenade Launcher. "Speculative Fire with Template weapons can avoid MODs by Partial Cover, the CH Special Skill, ODD... by placing the Template so it is not centered on the target." Remove all the commas and stuff we aren't talking about (partial cover, ODD, etc) and it states SPECIFICALLY "Speculative Fire with Template weapons can avoid the CH Special Skill by placing the Template so it is not centered on the target." "Speculative Fire with Template weapons can avoid the CH Special Skill by placing the Template so it is not centered on the target" It's clear as day.
Yeah, it's the Camouflaged State that stops you targeting them, not the Camouflage and Hiding Skill Speculative Fire ignores the mods from the Skill, but does nothing about the effects of the State (by the by, MODs specifically refers to numerical bonuses or penalties in Infinity, not all effects of the skill) This does illustrate why the change of nomenclature in N4 was an excellent idea.
Per the Camouflaged page under Cancellation: A trooper's Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever: The Camouflaged trooper receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit, without previous Discovery (by means of an Intuitive Attack, a Template Weapon whose target was a nearby model, etc.) Without previous Discovery by a Template Weapon whose target was a nearby model, etc. Spec Fire allows you to target a nearby location. RAW, Spec Fire allows me to literally shoot at nothing. I can choose a point outside of LOF (within range of course) and fire at -6. If you are hit and have to make a subsequent ARM/BTS roll the State is canceled. I don't see why they would include this scenario if hitting a trooper in the Camouflaged State without targeting it wasn't possible.
That scenario is for when a nearby trooper is targeted and the template splashes onto the Camouflaged trooper. For example using a shotgun to shoot a Grunt that is stood next to a Camouflaged Foxtrot You need to re-read Spec Fire, it does not let you target the ground (that's the Targetless Trait) what it lets you do is: "this Skill allows him to place the center of the Circular Template somewhere other than over the target of the attack. However, the target must be inside the Area of Effect of the Circular Template." You still have to have a target, you're just allowed to place the template off-centre, which avoids the -3 or -6 BS Attack MODs for the Camouflage and Hiding special skill (but has no effect on the Camouflaged state)
You're right bro, everyone has been playing it wrong this entire time. I don't know why you cant accept the fact that you cannot do this. The targetless trait like on smoke grenades is what lets you spec fire literally anything Normal grenades still need a target That rule you quoted is for what happens if you use something like a chain rifle or flamer on a visible trooper and catch a camo marker under it That rule you quoted is for what happens if you spec fire onto a visible target and catch a camo marker under it Accept your L and move on.
You gotta admit, it's pretty loose. If I am able to target "somewhere other than over the target of the attack" to avoid penalties, it sure makes it sound like you can target something other than the target. I appreciate your mature debate on this subject. The rules between these two items specifically are very sketch as far as how they are written and the effects/interaction between the two...not to mention the spirit of Spec Fire and how it would normally be implemented IRL. I mean the whole point is to "make sure nothing is back there" by launching a grenade to clear it out.
C'mon man, don't be a dick. It's a game and the rules that affect the interaction between these two skills are very contradictory. It would have been easy enough to just say "A trooper in the Camouflaged State cannot be the target of Speculative Fire"...but no they have to have 150 different concessions. I literally had 4 different tabs/pages open just to read over these two skills.
Not what the rules say. They allow you to place the template off-centre of the target, they don't change who or what or where the target actually is.
"Enemies cannot declare Attacks against a trooper in the Camouflaged state without previously Discovering that trooper, or declaring Intuitive Attack." Speculative Shot is an Attack, so it can't target a trooper in Camouflaged state. It really is that simple.
I am on board with what you are saying, but I would argue that it really isn't that simple. This game is fraught with sessions played where entire rules are forgotten/ignored. I know there have been times that I have lost a game and later realized my opponent did something that they weren't normally able to do under the specific conditions in which they did it and there was no intent on there part to "cheat"...it just wasn't noticed.
I was meaning this specific situation, from what we've seen of N4 there's a lot of progress already been made in clarity of rules.
100% I was a warcor for years and still messed up from time to time. People get rusty on stuff they've not done in a while or not fully grasp stuff if it's not part of the faction they play or models they own. It's a big, tough, complex game. No sweat. Just learn from it and move on :-)
