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Crits and New Symbiomates

Discussion in 'Rules' started by DukeofEarl, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No it's not. Defensive/ARO pieces should be expendable; moreover, in Onyx I'm frequently putting 17 point models on flash pulse aro duty. Even if the tactic was "too strong" there are other, more powerful things that could have used a nerf first.

    You're acting like the only sportsmanlike thing to do vs. a TI warband is to lose.
     
    #121 Hecaton, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Curious... you have 3 options for cheaper (R-drone for 8, Ikadron for 9, Unidrons for 15) with a total AVA of 3 + however many Unidrons you feel like bringing. If you are bringing M-drones over those options, you are, presumably, bringing them for more than just ARO duty. Or rather, why risk them when you have cheaper options available?
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Unidrons can't be Overclocked and you tend to want them to be in a core fireteam anyway; this limits the amount of lanes they can cover since they're all in a bunch. I'm bringing M-drones because they're on of Onyx's few Multiterrain options and are a specialist to boot; they're still expendable in the sense that if my opponent takes a couple orders dealing with them I feel pretty good about it. I'm often also taking Ikadrons and/or an R-Drone.

    And then I have expensive models (Umbras) who rely on flash pulses to help defend themselves, but I wouldn't call them "expendable."
     
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  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Overclock is great if you've built a list to support it (and 2 Ikadrons, an R-drone, and 2 M-drone would certainly make it worth it... add in KISS for good measure). However, I think you might be discounting a Remote Presence/Dogged flash pulse a bit more than you should. Of course up to 5 of them might be in a core (probably less), but at AVA total, there's nothing stopping you from taking more that are on pure ARO duty. That said, they are only 2 points cheaper...
     
  5. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    my Enjoyment of the infinity rules sub forum improved dramatically when I realized I could ignore certain folks who repeatedly argue in bad faith
     
  6. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather say that criticizing rules in a bad faith is probably the best way to test them for loopholes.
    It is, however, enjoyable for noone indeed when this is not done as a part of development process and you're looking at finalized rules, making all of that pointless.

    So, may I ask you folks what is the consensus / survived opinions on this matter? It's a bit hard to look it up seeing how rule debate turned into balance debate.
     
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  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    For me it is a step further in the "there are too many variables to go with a reliable plan" when making a list. Sure, it's how you use the list and not the list what makes you win, but I enjoy to go with some degree of preparation to a game, instead of just rolling d20's and hope for the best since there are no way to reduce the amount of variables that need to be taken into account :S
     
  8. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Towards Crits and Mates, No roll done means no loss of the mate. The PDF formatting (now in Wiki too) makes that absolutely clear.
     
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  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I don't like it, but I'd go this way as well. Until they actually change the way the crit rules are written (as @psychoticstorm implied they should), no roll = no loss of the mate.

    The crit rules should say something like: "Rolling a Critical means the attack is an automatic success. Unless otherwise specified, each Critical rolled in a BS Attack causes the target to lose 1 point from their Wounds/Structure Attribute[, automatically failing the ARM/BTS roll.] without making an ARM/BTS Roll to avoid the damage."

    That should be enough to indicate that a "roll" is made without needing to roll the dice because the outcome is known.
     
  10. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    The alternative would be adding in a clause for Criticals in the Mate rules, similar to those mentioned earlier in this thread for other rules.
     
  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    You're right, of course. It might work to clean up some of the entries by removing the need for those extra clauses, but that, ultimately is more editing than just adding one more clause.

    I can't remember if this was asked before, but does TI also mean you don't have to make a guts roll if you are hit with a flash pulse? It seems the third bullet means you still need to pass a guts check, unless I'm missing something in the TI rule that overrides it...
     
  12. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    No ARM/BTS roll, no guts

    edit: forgot about this part: "Surviving one or more successful Attacks from weapons, types of Equipment or Hacking Programs with the Non-Lethal Trait, or that do not provoke ARM or BTS Rolls."
    Pretty sure isn't a successful attack due to being nullified, just a successful FtF.
     
  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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  14. Aatu

    Aatu New Member

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    I understand that the intent of this rule has been clarified, but the RAW itself raises SO many questions.

    1. What is "using"? The orange box also talks about "activating" a symbiomate. What are these?
    2. What is an automatic equipment? Automatic skill is defined as "Automatic Skills are those that can be employed without expending an Order or ARO. Consequently, these Skills do not require a Roll."
    3. Obligatory trait is clear(?): "The use of this Special Skill or Equipment is compulsory and cannot be waived.", but again, what is using?
    4. What are "requirements"?
    5. What are effects? Does applying any effects require "use" of a skill or equipment?

    We really can't even talk about symbiomate without defining these... however, when our official rule sources are this level of bad, we kinda must.

    So, here is my understanding of above mentioned concepts/rules, and I would love to hear where I have gone wrong if I have.

    To benefit from a skill or piece of equipment, that skill or equipment must be used.

    To use a skill or piece of equipment, all it's requirements must be met.

    When using a skill or an equipment, it's effects are... in effect. It's effects are not in use if the skill is not used.

    Automatic equipment is same as automatic skill.


    So, if these hypothesis of rules are correct the nonsense RAW of symbiomates would be:


    Since the equipment is obligatory, you have to try to use it every opportunity you can.

    You can pass through nearly all requirements quite easily. The last one might cause a pause:

    The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces ARM or BTS Roll.

    However, if that is read like a... well, VERY strict rules lawyer, that says when symbiomate must be used, not when it can be used and as such does not restrict use of symbiomate.

    The removal effect for symbiomate is quite clear: "This is a single-use piece of Equipment, the SymbioMate will be removed from the game table at the end of the Order in which it was used".

    This would mean, that all symbiomates are removed from play after the first order of the game. Obligatory trait forces you to use them, and the requirements don't really hold water.

    Playing it like THAT makes absolutely NO SENSE.

    So, I would recommend people in my meta to consider the last requirement to read something like "symbiomate can only, and must only be used..."


    Still, I would not apply any rules in the effect box without: 1. passing the requirements of the equipment, or 2. using the equipment.

    If I can apply the effects of a skill or equipment without using the skill or equipment, or if I can ignore requirements of a skill or an equipment we are in trouble.

    The rules for symbiomate are not only unambiguous, they introduce precedent that introduces ambiguity to rules that had none by undermining concepts like "using", "requirements" and "effects" that are not well defined to begin with.
     
    #134 Aatu, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  15. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    ... and because you must use it ever opportunity that you can, there’s no point in defining anything other than when it “must” be used.

    For the rest of your argument, look at the rules for Antipodes, one of the other Obligatory skills. Your analysis doesn’t work for Antipodes, or Ghost:Jumper or I’m pretty sure any of the automatic Obligatory skills.
     
  16. Aatu

    Aatu New Member

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    Can you be more specific about about concepts of "using" or "requirements" or "effects" (or something else?). What they mean is what I am most interested about? Of course, I maybe I am just too naive to think they mean consistently anything:) What specifically on antipodes does not work?
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Glue ignores Mates anyway, it causes a PH roll not ARM/BTS on a hit. And Flash Pulse is a Non-Lethal attack, so TI applies and even if Flash Pulse crits, does no effect.


    Put the entire phrase "or being affected by any weapon or rule" into parentheses:

    • The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack (or being affected by any weapon or rule) that forces ARM or BTS Roll.
    So you read it as "The Symbiomate must be used when suffering a successful Attack that forces ARM or BTS Roll." Or as "The Symbiomate must be used when being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll."


    'Mates don't activate!

    Total Immunity is 'always on' until the 'Mate gets used, so a Flash Pulse hit gets ignored.


    No "may be" about it, the examples absolutely NEED to be rewritten. Especially the Spanish examples!


    Considering Ian JW is mentioned in the StarCo fluff, pretty sure he plays Nomads, at least some of the time.
     
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  18. CaptainVenge

    CaptainVenge Frog with Light Rocket Launcher

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    So what's the result of 7 pages of discussion? Do mates survive critical hits and stay on their hosts?
     
  19. GrantC

    GrantC Active Member

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    Yes.
     
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    But if the crit does damage it only matters if you have a 2W Symbiont
     
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