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Crits and New Symbiomates

Discussion in 'Rules' started by DukeofEarl, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    sorry, the rules imply otherwise:
    https://assets.infinitythegame.net/..._fall/es/v1.1/nuevas_reglas_daedalus_fall.pdf
    https://assets.infinitythegame.net/...new_rules/en/v1.1/daedalus_fall_new_rules.pdf
    Emphasis mine, no translations applied, all taken straight from the PDF.

    It literally FORCES the bearer to roll even if inmunne, then apply TI, so discard after flash pulse.

    EDIT: in red, bolded, for emphasis (mine)
     
    #41 xagroth, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    How can you perform a roll when
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    When the piece of equipment (the 'mate) says you WILL ROLL, applying the Total Inmunity, but forcing you to roll anyway

    So you roll, and regardless of the result, ignore the Flash Pulse, and at the end of the ARO discard the 'mate.
     
  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Since the TI says it will not make the roll how will it make the roll?
     
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  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    since it cannot, because it's a piece of metal with humanoid shape and a head smaller than the dice used in most situations, obviously the controlling player of the miniature will.

    Seriously, stop trying to ignore the rules. It is a nerf, it is a HUGE nerf, but it is clear and cut: The gear (mate) forces you to roll, and that causes the gear (mate) to be discarded at the end of the order/ARO.
    suceeding, failing, or not knowing what to roll against is irrelevant. Condition for removal: roll has been meet.

    Calling @Koni, with respect, to settle this, since this thread is now going in circles.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The trooper already has Total Immunity from the previous bullet point, which means that the Attack does not force an ARM/BTS Roll.
     
  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Does all of this mean my Kotail can get a mate and just laugh off jumping off the highest building now until he gets attacked since he's ARM9?
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    He can anyway, thanks to Super-Jump.
     
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  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    But the Mate bearer is a victim of an Attack thus hitting the clouse of actually using the mate ....
     
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  10. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Being hit by an attack isn't the trigger, it's :

    When a trooper in the Active Symbiont Armor state with a SymbioMate suffers a successful Attack—or is affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls she will perform an ARM/BTS Roll with an Attribute value of 9, applying the Total Immunity Special Skill. Any other successful Attacks—or weapon or rule—requiring any ARM or BTS Rolls by the user during the same Order will also apply the ARM/BTS 9 Attribute value, and the Total Immunity Special Skill.

    Emphasis mine.
     
  11. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    So to recap, we've got a few proposed scenarios:

    A). Symbiomates provide ARM/BTS and TI from the moment they are equipped. They are "used" when the bearer is required to make an ARM or BTS roll. The use provides no additional bonuses, but triggers that the mate will be removed at the end of the order. Flash Pulse will not cause the mate to be spent because TI means the use trigger is never hit (This seems to be the position of most in the thread so far).

    B). Symbiomates are used when the bearer would normally be required to make an ARM/BTS roll. Upon their use, they provide ARM/BTS and TI, which is applied to all hits they would be required to save against. TI would negate the need to roll BTS against Flash Pulse, but the mate is still spent because flash pulse triggers its use. (This seems to be the position of myself and @eciu)

    C). Symbiomates provide ARM/BTS and TI from the moment they are equipped. They are "used" when the bearer is required to make an ARM or BTS roll. The wording of the rule literally forces them to make a roll, even if total immunity would make them immune. Thus, the mate is spent after receiving a hit from Flash Pulse. (This seems to be the position of @xagroth, I think?).

    @ijw any thoughts on clarification for this? I don't want to beat a dead horse but I haven't seen what I consider a convincing counter-argument against my statement on Page 2.
     
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  12. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    This is the only scenario that is correct.

    There isn't a debate here, just poor understanding of a written rule.
     
    #52 jfunkd, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
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  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    @Tom McTrouble I'm assuming your reasoning comes from needing to meet the requirements in order to benefit from any of the effects of a skill.

    This is a poor counter argument - as we all know this particular rule needs a pretty big language overhaul - but there is precedent for this: Sixth Sense. The way it's written, only some of the effects require the listed requirements; specifically, you don't need to be attacked (requirement) in order to delay your ARO (effect).

    In a similar way, the argument is that the listed requirement for the 'mate to be "used" is not a requirement to benefit from all of the effects, as some of those effects are passive and always available until the 'mate is gone.

    Looking at it more closely, I think this might be a problem with how skills are laid out in general, with a requirements section and effects section. How should skills be written if there are some effects that are permanent (until they're not) and other effects that actually require some trigger? Should the requirements section just include the most general requirements there are, and if there are further requirements on individual effects, include them in the effects section in the form of an "if...then" statement?
     
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  14. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, there is one point, though:

    Does suffering a crit count as 'being forced to make an ARM/BTS roll'
    (even if it is stated that this roll is being bypassed by a crit),
    and thus is the mate used up by a crit,
    or does the crit cause a wound without affecting (and being affected by) the mate?
     
  15. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the hijacking to get an answer we have had for over a week...
    The way everything is punctuated in the PDF means that Crits are potentially weaker against Mates (at least on multi wound units) than a normal hit. With a normal hit you have a chance (10% in cover against a combi) to do a wound, but the mate is lost. A crit does a wound but hte mate remains to continue being an issue.

    That can't be an intended situation can it?

    I think we can all agree that the new Mate rule suffers from using a lot of wording for the old version while being a completely different rule now and could be cleaned up a lot. I personally read it as though it is an active affect like say Albedo, but with a different cancellation clause using the term Used instead of Cancelled or Removed.
     
  16. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    The real answer we need is a few posts down:

    Welp issue resolved for now I guess. I stood on my hill and died.
     
  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Sure, for the hijacking. This has nothing to do with the thread's question though
     
  18. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    It probably doesn't help that Camo, TO Camo, Holoprojector L1 and Holoecho have the wording "receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit" to deal with the case of getting hit by critical by Normal ammunition and managed to avoid setting a clear precedent for this situation. :(

    The mess of it all is I expect that Symbiomates are supposed to get turned off by a critical caused by normal ammunition, but ignore a critical caused by Flash Pulse or ADHL.
     
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  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Explain me how the tohaa guy who lost f2f against Warcor is not a "target of Attack" as goes the first part of this sentence:
    • The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll.
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Again, attack/weapon/rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll. Just being a successful Attack is not enough.