1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Crits and New Symbiomates

Discussion in 'Rules' started by DukeofEarl, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,983
    Likes Received:
    5,654
    That is correct hence my answer above, I do not know what will happen at the moment.
     
  2. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    537
    Likes Received:
    522
    But without the mate activating, there's no total immunity.
     
    daboarder and eciu like this.
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,413
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    For what is worth, in Spanish it says:
    "Un Crítico con Munición Especial Shock causa a su objetivo la perdida directa de 1 punto del Atributo Heridas/ EST, sin que este pueda realizar ya la tirada de BLI."
    Directly translated to:
    "A critical hit with Shock special ammunition causes the target to directly lose 1 point of wounds/structure, without him [the target] being able to make the ARM roll"

    The rationale is that the first point in the Effects makes the 'mate a "passive, always active" bonus, until forced to roll. Since that means having Total Inmunity without "activating" the 'mate, Flash Pulse is ignored without requiring any roll at all.
     
  4. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    537
    Likes Received:
    522
    I can understand that argument but that's distinctly not how the example is structured (emphasis mine)

    "During the game, the Gorgos receives, in the same Order, a successful hit with DA Special Ammunition, one successful hit with Adhesive Special Ammunition and a successful Attack with Forward Observer. As the Gorgos possesses a SymbioMate it is forced to use it, so the TAG treats the DA hit as Normal Ammunition (thanks to the Total Immunity Special Skill) applying an Attribute value of ARM 9."

    The Gorgos doesn't treat the DA ammo as Normal until it is "forced to use" the symbiomate, the triggering event of which was being hit with something that causes an ARM or BTS save.
     
    Hecaton and Urobros like this.
  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,933

    Lovely.

    I really hope that CB made an actual effort to check such interaction and that (incoming) FAQ will have answers for that.
     
    daboarder and xagroth like this.
  6. FatherKnowsBest

    FatherKnowsBest Red Knight of Curmudgeon

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    656

    lol
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,983
    Likes Received:
    5,654
    Even if we follow the logic of needing to be hit to activate, total immunity stops the flash pulse to force a roll so the symbiomate does not activate because the roll must be made (in a similar fashion with the question about critical not deactivating the symbiomate).
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,933
    Many Bothan polish Warcors died to bring us this information.
     
    Zewrath and FatherKnowsBest like this.
  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,933
    If the Symbiomate is not active then how the unit has a TI to ignore the Flash Pulse BTS roll ?

    Circular logic at it's best ^^
     
  10. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    302
    Likes Received:
    470
    Mates don't activate anymore.

    Mates grant Total Immunity while they remain unused, which:
    • If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3) that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll.
    Mates are used, (not activated) when:
    • The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll.
    • This is a single-use piece of Equipment, the SymbioMate will be removed from the game table at the end of the Order in which it was used.
    Having Total Immunity doesn't use the mate, only making an ARM or BTS roll does; which you don't do for non-lethal because mates grant Total Immunity.
     
    #30 jfunkd, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  11. ev0k

    ev0k Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    327
    It is. TI comes with the mates as a skill : you always have your mate on you until it is consumed. In fact, a mate doesn't "activate". It is always active, it just consumes when the bearer is forced to make an ARM or BTS roll.

    EDIT : ninja'ed by @jfunkd
     
  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,983
    Likes Received:
    5,654
    That is my belief as well, mates give ARM 9 BTS 9 and Total Immunity by been assigned.
     
  13. ev0k

    ev0k Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    327
    Even more, here is the wiki :
    • During the Deployment Phase, a SymbioMate is assigned to a trooper possessing Symbiont Armor and is placed in base to base contact with that trooper on the game table.
    • A SymbioMate provides its user in the Active Symbiont Armor state an ARM and BTS value of 9 replacing the ARM and BTS values of the user's Troop Profile and it also provides the Total Immunity Special Skill.
    • When a trooper in the Active Symbiont Armor state with a SymbioMate suffers a successful Attack or is affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls she will perform an ARM/BTS Roll with an Attribute value of 9, applying the Total Immunity Special Skill. Any other successful Attacks or weapon or rule requiring any ARM or BTS Rolls by the user during the same Order will also apply the ARM/BTS 9 Attribute value, and the Total Immunity Special Skill.
    • This is a single-use piece of Equipment, the SymbioMate will be removed from the game table at the end of the Order in which it was used.
    • This piece of Equipment is not applied when facing a Hacking or Comms Attack.
    Nowhere it is written that TI is only active when symbiomate is consumed. The 2nd bullet point clearly states that assigning symbiomate during deployement phase gives its user ARM/BTS 9 and TI Special Skill.
    The 3rd bullet point symply precise how and when the value of 9 is used, adding that you have still have TI when you spend your mate, otherwise some could argue that you loose TI when spending mate, ie making rolls with value 9 but without TI.
     
    DukeofEarl likes this.
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,432
    Likes Received:
    3,933
    • The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll.

    So being affected by something (Flash Pulse is an Attack afaik), also uses mate ?
     
  15. ev0k

    ev0k Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    327
    successful attack must force a BTS/ARM roll. There something like a typo in punctuation or something, but it's both the attack or the rule/weapon/curse/whatever that must force a BTS or ARM roll.
    No roll, no mate
     
  16. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    302
    Likes Received:
    470

    You're being deliberately obtuse now.

    The unit has total immunity because of the mate, so no ARM/BTS rolls happens, thus the mate is not used.
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    6,857
    The PDF has clearer punctuating on that 3rd bullet point:

    When a trooper in the Active Symbiont Armor state with a SymbioMate suffers a successful Attack—or is affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls she will perform an ARM/BTS Roll with an Attribute value of 9, applying the Total Immunity Special Skill. Any other successful Attacks—or weapon or rule—requiring any ARM or BTS Rolls by the user during the same Order will also apply the ARM/BTS 9 Attribute value, and the Total Immunity Special Skill.
     
    ev0k likes this.
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,413
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Definition of attack by the wiki: "Attack. The use of this Skill is a form of Attack. Remember that you cannot declare attacks against allies or Neutral units, whether represented by figures or Markers."

    The bolded part on Eciu's post is one phrase, the second phrase being "or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll." like falling damage

    So, impacted by an order that is defined as an Attack (Flash Pulse, succesful hit) would trigger the "suffering a successful attack" even while ignoring the "being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll."

    To me, it's FAQ candidate. But then again, CB "revised" the Daedalus' fall PDFs last week, adding the "only 1 troop with tri-core" part... while leaving the example of play with more than one troop with Tri-core in the list.

    I haven't bothered to check anything else, since, you know, proofreading is a job.

    Edit:
    Spanish PDF:
    "En caso de sufrir un Ataque exitoso, o verse afectado por un arma o regla, que requiera de Tirada de BLI o PB, la tropa es inmune al efecto especial de las Municiones Especiales que impacten en ella, considerándolas como Munición Normal."

    It literally translates to "in case of suffering a successful attack, or being affected..."

    So, Flash pulse => bye 'mate, you look great on the photo.
     
    eciu likes this.
  19. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    537
    Likes Received:
    522
    I can understand how you are coming to that conclusion, but if the rules are meant to be played that way, I'd argue the effects would be written as something like "the symbiomate is removed from the table at the end of any order during which the bearer was forced to make an ARM or BTS roll" and nothing else. If it grants a passive bonus to ARM/BTS and gives TI just by being assigned and without requiring activation, there's no reason to even write rules about when it is "used".

    Both examples describe units being forced to use their symbiomates upon receiving successful attacks, then applying the effects of their use.

    Comments are in red and emphasis mine below:

    REQUIREMENTS
    • The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces ARM or BTS Roll. (This establishes that there is a triggering event for a mandatory use of a symbiomate).
    EFFECTS
    • A SymbioMate provides its user in the Active Symbiont Armor state an ARM and BTS value of 9 replacing the ARM and BTS values of the user's Troop Profile and it also provides the Total Immunity Special Skill. (States the bonuses a symbiomate confers to the trooper, but also states that those bonuses are applied to the user. You can't be a user without using the equipment, and the point under requirements tells you when the mate is used).

    • When a trooper in the Active Symbiont Armor state with a SymbioMate suffers a successful Attack or is affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls she will perform an ARM/BTS Roll with an Attribute value of 9, applying the Total Immunity Special Skill. Any other successful Attacks or weapon or rule requiring any ARM or BTS Rolls by the user during the same Order will also apply the ARM/BTS 9 Attribute value, and the Total Immunity Special Skill. (States in greater detail what happens when a mate is used and that the bonuses persist until the end of the same order).
    • This is a single-use piece of Equipment, the SymbioMate will be removed from the game table at the end of the Order in which it was used.
      (Establishes that the mate is removed from the table at the end of the order it is used during).
    To me, everything together points to that those bonuses aren't passively applied without use of the symbiomate.
     
  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,983
    Likes Received:
    5,654
    That is understandable, but to waste the Sybiomate there must be an attack that forces an ARM or BTS roll, since the mate provides TI, there is an attack, but no ARM or BTS roll is forced.

    Edit I do understand the sentiment for the need of a clarification.
     
    #40 psychoticstorm, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    Nuada Airgetlam and Abrilete like this.