So it’s their improvement from one supplement to the next that’s causing your loss of confidence. I’m not sure how to respond.
I find the supplements and world building to be of good quality. Infinity, as with all fictional words, have a set of rules they follow, if one accepts the rules and immerses themselves in the world or not is up to them I suppose, I find many of the popular sci fi settings to be full of flaws that are inconsistent with their own rules, Infinity is far better at this in my opinion. What I found with uprising is many people first of all do not understand some of the fundamental rules of the setting and have no understanding of the relevant power levels in Infinity.
Which, imho, is for most of the factions not the case. Especially with this seperated description of beeing OOP but STILL beeing a legal option to play, means that the old minis of yours still can be played. I played against CHA just recently on my last tournament and it was everything but a short stroll at the river on a sunny day with a lovely lady by my side. Having discontinoued armies still in game as playable factions is not the regular case, it´s the exception. Ofcourse, it would be super nice, if there would be a constant flow of new miniatures, updated rules, and so on... but i understand from an economic POW that this isn´t profitable to support a produkt you don´t longer get money from. Other companies give way less shits if you still can play your expensive little dolls or not. as just recently seen on the burn city brawl, with tooha scoring first place. Cannot be that bad than (BTW: best nomads happen to be 16th place, darn shyte overpowered lovechilds) And still they have to be in the box together with diablos to even have a chance to be sold. I get your point, but having this rule or not does not seem to make any difference. I did not see a single Lobo on the table so far. It´s way more interesting to see that it is indeed possible to give value to CC-specialist plus beeing able to handle NBW without having to rely on MA only. I think in a different thread was this discussion, and we see, the rules contain the option, now it just has to be applied. Strongly agree with both of it. Especially with Healer beeing obsolet. Of course, someone could argue with "but Ref.healers have more AVA", but who is unironicly playing more than 1 of the ladies? The frenzy discount hits very hard on this one. This for example is something I feel very hard to understand... First: It´s a fictional story. You are not the villian. If that would be the case we have to speak very seriously about all flames of war and Bolt action and other WWII set ups. It´s a fictional set up. Don´t mistake that with reality. I don´t expect any yu jing player installing det-packs on some japanese necks. Second: observed in the light of truth: none of the factions displayed are "good guys". Every faction is the hero in their own story and the villian in everyone elses. In Uprising Yu jing happens to be the great antagonist, a baton they took over from CA, which are the one big enemy hated by every faction for basicly the whole time.
Well... It looked like the story of Uprising was not well made in this direction. There was many stories of brave JSA fighters, that are struggle against superior enemy. How different factions helped them. Of course there was also other side of it. With interests of wealthy japanese industrialists and so on, but still there were more about previous thing. And Yu Jing for me looked like too obvious bad guys, which made "bad cruel things" with less logic than those japanese "aristocracy" for more power and be out of control. Anyway, all of that is a history now. As you said, Yu Jing got flag from CA for a while. And to be honest, I want the moment in the story for more peaceful interaction with EI... But not sure, if it would happen. In other and more moments I can say, that Infinity world inspires me alot.
Easy: the improvement was not enough, and I'm tired of the copy-paste, like seeing the same lore for Lupe and Trasymedes in their Dire Foes (which I have since nearly a decade ago), in Uprising (with small addings to tie it with Uprising, because all Dire Foes led to that, there was no other event in the Human Sphere...), and separated by character in Raveneye and Endsong... I suppose that, as always, we agree to disagree in all accounts. I will, however, give a name to that second paragraph of yours, and it's called "internal consistency". Something it si my opinion was sorely lacking, with common sense, in Uprising. But of course it's not as if Nomads, Haqqislam and Ariadna support more often YJ than PanO just because they use one to erode the other and claiming that YJ losing as much as it was claimed during Uprising did not made PanO to get a LOT of distance against the eternal number 2 is entirely in their interest. It's as if the previous months YJ had been sold as crusing PanO's political and economical advantage, and how all the Human Sphere was worried about them becoming the foremost human power by a large margin and needed to be taken down a peg... Only there was no preparation, just a hot idea in the moment. Without a proper follow-up to boot. That happens when the unit is irrelevant, unneeded, and tries to fit in a niche already covered by years-older troop (Jaguars) who are, to boot, cheaper and more... disposable. I did not claim the Lobos were OP, but they are a very obvious example of an attempt at selling a model by undercosting the profile by cheating their own formula. And yes, it's cheating if tomorrow they decide a "light Pistol" as a new melee/shooting weapon has a range of +6/+3/+0/-3 reaching up to 120cm, damage 12, Burst 5, melee capable, with AP/shock ammo that should cost less than a MULTI pistol because hey, it only has two ammo options, regardless of range or burst... If you play CA, then you are *choosing* from the beginning the Alien faction that wants to conquer and annex Humanity. If you play YJ, you are, officially, choosing the HI faction that is the eternal number 2 to the hyperpotence that is PanO... but suddenly comes Uprising and YJ is not only the villain, but it's also a caricature of a villain, mustache twirling, heavy handed ham included, unable to grasp any consequence, unable to see any hit coming, flailing around and making a fool of itself while at the same time commits egregious crimes akin to taking out both of its eyes in order to try and take out a single one from its opponents (JSA). The worst thing you can do is turn a non-villain not into a villain, but into a laughable, patetic villain. And then comes the next episode, and it's like almost nothing happened then, because the whole conflict served for... what, JSA is a separate entity, Japan has been stolen (remember, YJ *paid* for an inmense debt Japan had, buying the nation and its lands) and the Japanese people no longer live in YJ space? What is the difference of that and "the JSA left YJ renouncing their nationality and a crowdfunding of the whole Human Sphere bought Japan back for them, but O12 took most of that moneys as taxes from YJ"? In the end, the Japanese people left YJ or became so irrelevant they no longer are mentioned within the nation, got Japan, and are so indebted (supposedly, nothing ever happens with said debts, but of course someone will say "but in the background we don't see it's being used"... flashnews: in narration, Descartes' Cogito Ergo Sum is supreme: if it's not mentioned it does not exist) they are even lower than an Ariadna subfaction...
Lol, Lobos are not undercooked, they are overcosted. Literally the worst profiles in Corregidor that nobody wanted. There is no reason to play these guys at all. Everything rhy do can be done better by other units.
To answer briefly that, PanOceania has the complete control of 3 star systems, Neoterra, Varuna and Acontecimento, plus all the joint control systems they have with others, outside of catching them with their pants down and with no military, or military industry, as it happened with the first Neocolonial wars, there is no realistic chance of any (human) nation to even come close to defeat them militarily, industrially, or commercially and their political performance is not bad. While Yu Jing claim to be the second biggest power, and they are, the gap between the hyperpower and them is vast and not easily bridgeable, the second Neocolonial wars when PanOceania had short itself out, build up their military, their military industry, and their intelligence, is a testament to this (and why Yu Jing abide by O-12 rulings). Why the minor factions aligned with PanO? they did not, they went for the contracts promised by the Japanese elite after PanO got involved, should we see how badly Japan is whit all the promises they have given and a territory spread among the entire Human sphere with not enough military strength and naval assets to defend it? well we should but Japan is a minor nation (Ariadna who now are taking their first steps in space are vastly bigger than them) not really that important on global events. As I said back then, the biggest loser is PanOceania, it got involved in a conflict they did not want to, because the public was manipulated to demand it, I would have liked to see the behind the scenes in PanOceania intelligence and the heads that rolled because it happened and nobody noticed it and the secret investigation on PanOceania megacorporations that pushed the nation to this for their own gains.
That's an absolutely braindead take. They get their proxy state to disrupt Yu Jing, O-12 has made it clear that they are perfectly willing to violate YJ's sovereignty while putting their finger on the scale for PanO, etc. I think you're saying that to pretend the situation is "fair" when it's been loss after loss for YJ, with them being portrayed as both evil and incompetent.
The problem is that a setting in which players can play and identify with every faction should be handled like an ensemble cast, not one with defined losers and winners (which is more noticeable than even them portraying YJ as stupidly evil). Nomads as the designated protagonist faction makes the setting and game worse.
How does PanO lose? Yu Jing loses, and YJ is second place, so that's good for them, plus JSA is buying a bunch of PanO materiel and making them money... PanO definitely wanted that conflict. Violate YJ's sovereignty and then mommy O-12 punishes YJ and not you? What's not to like?
You are messing PanOceania and PanOceania megacorporations as one and the same thing, PanO could and can get their proxy wars with Yu Jing they do not need to be involved in a conflict directly and PanOceania as a whole did not benefit from the conflict just some of the Megacorporations. What happened is, Yu Jing lost some minor territories most of them been remote and underdeveloped, lost a lot of public face and now have to divert "military" recourses for internal policing, PanOceania gained nothing of substance other than see Yu Jing with a black eye and (some) PanOceania megacorporations gained lucrative contracts to exploit. From a tactical and strategic standpoint Yu Jing lost almost nothing, from a PR they lost face, but probably got more united by that, PanO gained nothing and their power balance with Yu Jing remains unchanged, not something worth the risk of what PanO did.
PanO exists to serve the megacorps, that's how their political system works. And no, PanO as a whole *did* benefit; their astropolitical aims were helped by destabilizing YJ. Those "minor" territories included teseum mining on Dawn, and significant portions of Mars and other planets. PanO is going to get preferential access to that teseum while Dai-Nippon tries to pay off its war debt. But most importantly, the benefit PanO got was the assurance that they can attack Yu Jing and O-12 will prevent YJ from retaliating. No. This is absolutely untrue, and you should apologize to me for lying so blatantly to my face. The Uprising book highlights how massive of a loss this was to Yu Jing and how much it hurt them. Shove it and come back when you're willing to have a discussion in good faith.
I think preferential reading and interpretation of the fluff instead of deeper and wider understanding of the fluff is not good for these discussions, I suggest you re read the fluff, there are many inaccuracies to what you said above. I am always making a good faith discussion with you, you just choose what you want to hear and react to anything that is not what you want to hear. Demanding an apology though, that is quite the thing.
It's entirely reasonable when *you* are being unreasonable and rude. Go ahead, find the material in the sourcebooks that says it's not in PanO's interests to fuck over Yu Jing, or that says PanO is in a worse spot after the uprising than YJ is. You're saying this stuff with no basis in the actual source material, and then expecting us to take it as seriously as what was actually written down. What's more, you *never* admit you are wrong even when backed into the corner on it. It's insulting and is a big part of why you don't participate on this forum in good faith.
Backed in a corner? what are you on about? Look I did not ask citations about your interpretation of the fluff, I take in good faith that you read the fluff, and simply do not corelate the entirety of the fluff. For example you say Even from pages 14 and 15 you can see written that for Yu Jing it was a matter of prestige and PanOceania Steel wall was mostly a blockade preventing further Yu Jing reinforcements (on some regions with the pretense of PanOceania assets it was more than that of course), further more it is clear PanOceania (and Nomads and Haqqislam) felt the pressure of their population to act mainly from the Candi Double program (and it is that pressure that forced the involvement). I do need to emphasize that PanOceania allowed Yu Jing withdrawals through the steel wall, regardless of Japanese protests, when these casualties would have really hurt Yu Jing. The book goes to great length in explaining how the Kuge used Candi's show to influence the perception of the population who forced the governments of the nations to action and the only PanOceania megacorporation to benefit was essentially MagnaObra hardly the majority of PanOceania or PanOceania megacorporations (and it is implied that if Yasbir had not assassinated the MagnaObra CEO the CEO would not have been involved). Of course it is not written with big bold letters that having your population been (so easily) manipulated to force the government to take action is at best worrisome, but it is a safe conclusion one can easily reach. The book also contains the locations Yu Jing lost and it is hardly a big list or wide or important territories, at least in my opinion. Anyway on the above I base my opinion, Uprising was a prestige matter for Yu Jing, PanO, Nomads and Haqqislam got involved because they got pressured by the population and since they got involved they made some side deals who may or may not be completely beneficiary to them and Japan got out of it with a massive dept a lot of deals they must fulfil, a scattered territory with not enough troops or ships to defend and a minor player in the global scene. Was it good for Yu Jing? no, was it as catastrophic as some people make it? no, should PanO intelligence be rolling heads and be extremely worried such stunt was made under their nose? definitely. And I do maintain if anyone wants to see how PanO attacking Yu Jing really feels like they can only see how the second Neocolonial wars ended, and how O-12 forced PanOceania to accept the status quo of pre Neocolonial wars territories, is anyone should be mad about O-12 limiting their power it would be PanOceania.
Well... I just disagree with this moment. Nomads in the story are not what could be called protagonists. At least not all ships. Corregidor is ok and more suited for this role, plus StarCo which is Corregidor child. They are one of those “noble mercenaries”. Bakunin could try, but it have so many dark moments like it’s lower levels. Tunguska is lawful evil at my taste). In the game it is another question of discussion, and some factions are really not the “top tier” (I don’t like this terms, but let’s use this one for a while), not like Nomads, Aleph and someone else. Plus nomads are powerful not in each sectorial. Each of the ships have dark moments in their lore. Really not nice things. (And I understand sometime wish of Aleph to blow up Bakunin (sometime). Despite the tone how it was said, it seems, like PanO is still in plus as howl on international arena. Not every goal was reached, but they are still in plus. So, main looser is Yu Jing in this story anyway.
Strategically this was a massive win for PanO; they have a handful of sympathetic enclaves within formerly-united Yu Jing territory and their only credible rival is forced to devote massive amounts of resources to rebuilding military and police forces. And this on top of the ongoing Paradiso war. Yu Jing also lost millions if not billions of potential labourers and soldiers, as well as several corporate IPs and useful military traditions, which is arguably more economically and militarily significant than the entire Nomad Nation. Once the whole Combined Army situation blows over, they're poised for a killing blow against Yu Jing via easy landings in JSA territories next time they get an excuse- sympathetic territories within weapons range of a major rival is a serious threat, just look at the late Cold War situation with missiles in eastern Europe and Cuba.
PanO also recently got away with invading Yujing territory and stealing valuable alien research in Downfall. PanO gets away with a lot.
