1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Creating a future for the Tohaa with a Sectorial

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by Cothel, Mar 16, 2019.

  1. Cothel

    Cothel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    426
    Likes Received:
    1,128
    The discontinuation of many of the core Tohaa units have left more than a few Tohaa players fearing for their faction. The new Tohaa units are now an NA2 army which makes 100% sense in the overall plot of the Human Sphere, but from a customer perspective it makes it look like Tohaa are on the chopping block with no hope for the future.


    There have been losses of Sectorials in other armies. Sure they were painful (more so for some than others), but they never felt like their Faction was going away. Any of the other armies that have lost SKUs already had other Sectorials and a future direction.


    This blow to the Tohaa army could have been handled better even with the exact same results in the stores. All it would have taken was to give the Tohaa the Sectorial they always had all along. CB could have taken the current Tohaa army, stripped out a couple of the Mercs, and made it the Paradiso Diplomatic Force or Paradiso Expeditionary Corps or any other name they wanted to come up with. Shift the current AVAs into this type of Sectorial under Tohaa and then the new Vanilla Tohaa could be the mix of current Tohaa with lower AVAs and Spiral Corps. Leave the Triad available to the Vanilla army because it’s a Tohaa thing, but cut down on the things other factions hate about Tohaa. Makauls? AVA 2. Kaeltar? AVA 1. Gao-Rael? AVA 2.


    CB still has time to work on this. There is no reason Tohaa need the current AVAs in their Vanilla army with the additions of the Spiral Corps units. Creating this “Paradiso” Sectorial then gives them a Sectorial that actually makes sense to retire with the loss of the Daedalus Gate. Tohaa players would see this as less of an ending of their chosen faction and more of the closing of a chapter.


    Even with the loss of the gate there is no reason the Tohaa should appear to be done. There are still gates that lead to space with the Sygmaa, and there is no reason why there couldn’t be future rebel units coming from there. There even could be a Tohaa Sectorial with human support. Now that they are cut off from their home system some humans could decide to help them out and assist them with missions. Sure humans are assholes, but also see how fast humans turn into heroes when they see someone in need and jump in to help. There is still space for Tohaa to grow, even if it is slowly or in the distant future. Creating a little hope now might keep the Tohaa players around long enough to see it.
     
    ChoTimberwolf, Foxep, WiT? and 5 others like this.
  2. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    393
    it does seem really strange they decided to have spiral corps be NA2 instead of a sectorial for tohaa. like, they have shasvastii units with different costs/abilities available in sectorial, so why not do that for tohaa? personally i see this combined with the dropping of all old models as a signal that the faction is prolly gonna get mothballed, and potentially dropped in the next edition. i mean, that could be years from now, but it seems like thats whats gonna happen.
     
    Golem2God and Abrilete like this.
  3. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    350
    Likes Received:
    278
    I think you are jumping the gun here. There is no clear evidence that the Tohaa as a faction will be scrapped. Taking off units could mean that there will be resculpts.

    Even if a sectorial is discontinued like MRRF or QK, it does not mean the end of it at all. Just a temporary inability to buy some models for it. Practically, it only means that players can't start to play this sectorial. I have dug out my MRRF after they had been "axed" if you want to call it that.

    CB has to discontinue some models for logistical reasons. We just have to accept that they can't have every mini in store for us forever.

    Don't worry about the Tohaa. They will survive.
     
  4. DustGod

    DustGod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    206
    They'll get new stuff after Spiral Corps sells enough...
    I'm sure those models will either be replaced/revamped/redone at some point... No worries bro
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  5. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    125
    I don’t think for the resculpt idea .. if it was so they wouldn’t discontinue some of the most recent references like sukuels
     
    ChoTimberwolf, Golem2God and Abrilete like this.
  6. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    I denied the signs for the current situation. That won't happened a second time.
    Despite the situation of MRRV and Acon, this fluff reason seems finally.
    The wormhole to Ariadna needed severely decades to reappear.
    This is the beginning of the end of vanilla Tohaa, as almost every "problematic" unit isn't in Spiral.
    That's a nerv that isn't called as one.
    The gates has open to let these not adopted units to vanish completely.
    That it doesn't happened befor means in these days nothing, cause never bevor has an vanilla faction been frenshed.
     
    Golem2God and Abrilete like this.
  7. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    350
    Likes Received:
    278
    Ok, I do understand why you are worried. However, I don't think that CB is going to take your toys away. Even if CB stops to sell models of the Tohaa faction, they will still keep the faction viable to play. On top of that, you will have the NA2 sectorial. Just like Merovingia, the Tohaa will not disappear from the game. I can even imagine that there will be a Tohaa based sectorial in the CA.

    You can curse me if in a few months I will have to admit that I was totally wrong and the Tohaa went the way of the Exrah.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  8. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    664
    Likes Received:
    790
    As I understood it, all profiles will stay, and Tohaa gets 6-8 new profiles.
    So for existing Tohaa players this is a good thing,
    because they are likely to already have the models that will get discontinued.
    It might only discourage new players to start with Tohaa,
    as many models will be missing.
     
    DukeofEarl and Golem2God like this.
  9. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    409
    The way I see it, It do not matter any more to me, If CB is going to kill off the Tohaa, If they are? then all I ask is to do it now and don't prolong things by telling me you can still play your army. CB! lets just get to the end of things. I have moved on.
     
  10. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    629
    Oh, hey, thanks, I just bought into Tohaa, got most of the dropped SKUs and the whole Spiral release. It's awesome that you want my investment to be unplayable outside of Spiral NA2. Only, not really. How about we don't and just say we did?
     
    ChoTimberwolf and RobertShepherd like this.
  11. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    If I'm wrong, I will thankfully admit that I was wrong. But I don't think that will happen in a few month rather then a few years.
    And I think even CB don't know exactly what will happen with Tohaa. But the let the gate open for every possibility.
    Yes, but all really interesting loadouts are Spiral only. We haven't all Infos yet, but atm I don't see any real good additions like Mary Problems or Puppetactica Company for vanilla Nomads.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  12. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    You've described miniatures purchases as an "investment", and you're missing the problem that this situation is creating. The models you've just purchased have been discontinued. What reason do you have to believe that those troop profiles will ever be adjusted, revisited, or otherwise dealt with?

    All of the newly announced Tohaa models work better if you don't try to use the models that you just purchased.
     
  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    1,638
    Seriously, buck up mate.

    Or something that rhymes with it.
     
    Bellyflop likes this.
  14. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    629
    Yeah, "investment", as in "I paid money, bought wares, expect a return in form of fun games out of them". If I'm denied that return of fun for my money and the 300 pts of models become expensive paperweight, I'll be rightfully pissed off.

    Also, what makes you think I want any of them "adjusted, revisited, or otherwise dealt with" at all? The only thing I do not want is what the person I quoted was wishing for, Tohaa vanilla going the way of Exrah and getting squatted and removed from Army. That'd be horrible. I'm perfectly fine with the same status that MRRF or Acontecimento have - frozen but playable until later reestablishment, maybe.

    Citation required? That's a suspiciously bold assumption for profiles that aren't even legal for gameplay yet.

    And even if that is the case, is that really that much of a surprise that profiles made to be a complete set (sectorial) that does not utilize the discontinued SKUs were not designed to synergize with these SKUs when used with them in another set (vanilla)? I intend to play vanilla with vanilla profiles, if any Spiral ones prove useful to me, all the better. That's just a bonus though.

    I'll withhold my opinion until I learn more about the game, get more games in and read analysis from experienced players who manage to get a few dozen games of Spiral-reinforced vanilla Tohaa under their belts to see if Spiral is really so "useless for vanilla Tohaa".
     
    AdmiralJCJF, Abrilete, WiT? and 2 others like this.
  15. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    1,638
    I've had two games so far with the new spiral units in vanilla (using conservative 'best guess' rules based on the videos of the last week - I can explain how I played things if people are interested). Positive results so far especially with the impressive synergy of Draal + Gao-Rael spitfire, which might overnight have become some of the best anti-link firepower in the game. It's very impressive, even using the most conservative rules for stratuscloud (which CB has spoiled like three different ways so far).

    Other conclusions: Kiiutans are going to take some finesse to learn because weaker impersonation is a very fragile marker state, and Taagma are nice but I'm so used to my existing triad setups that finding a place for them is proving tricky. I should probably put more faith in their gunfighting ability.

    I'm holding off testing the Kriiegel until we know what a pherobooster is since unlike the Draal's dazer (which apparently is costed the same as antipersonnel mines, i.e. cheap so I'm comfortable playing without ever knowing what it does) it seems to be contributing a hefty weight to the model's cost, so I assume it'll be at least a little important.

    TLDR: even on limited information, the new spiral profiles are a significant shot in the arm for vanilla Tohaa. The ability to very favourably engage the game's current best overwatch elements (to whit: kamau, haido, tanko, dakini sniper with cyberdancer etc etc) is massive.
     
  16. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    Ok, tell me one good unit thats Funktion isn't already occupied with a better unit/triad.
    Only Kriigel SMG is worth considering.
    That we would get the Tri-Core was utopian, but I had hoped for the Smoke lgl to build other lists then the Sukeul HMG.
    Don't know what to do with the Kiiutan Imposter dude, the only benefit against the Igao is the starting point, loadout and skills seem weaker if you don't have access to the E/Mitter + E/Maler.
    Stratocloud seems good, but you'll get for these points nearly a Triad of Makaul who can do a similar job (handle ARO pieces)
     
    borings likes this.
  17. DustGod

    DustGod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    206
    I'm buying Spiral Corps...
    Check this out though...
    I would have Never... Ever... Ran "Vanilla" Tohaa.. Like ever man...
    But now that I'm going to run Spiral, I'm going to need models from the regular Tohaa line....

    Look I've been dreaming of Shasvastii since day one waiting and waiting for new models... and they getting a new Sphynx man but "they're getting a new Sphynx"
    And I'm getting Spiral Corps first. I just like the models enough to buy them and learn how to play with Tohaa.

    That means a player who never Ever Ever intended to Evvvver play Tohaa is going to be buying a bunch of Tohaa stuff... and at that is putting his Dream Army on the back burner because they look so cool just to looks sold me. Then I began to read the rules.. "My God these guys are great" so think about the great news that is for the Tohaa fans that a ton of new people are going to be coming in and buying up stuff for them there for validating new production on the line.

    they're not going anywhere they're just getting more people involved with the Faction via NA2
     
    #17 DustGod, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
    Cothel, Aemaru and RobertShepherd like this.
  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    1,638
    Sure!

    Firstly, worth breaking down that we're discussing two sectorials here. Spiral is going to play hugely differently to vanilla Tohaa, and from the looks of it is shaping up to be a highly unique army with lots of rules and interactions that set it apart. I mean just beyond everything else, for a vanilla player it means losing access to Makauls but gaining access to Helots. We can't serious have a full understanding of Spiral especially until we've seen all the links, the stats for everything, the rules for the new equipment, etc.

    For vanilla, we can make some educated guesses.

    Firstly, Schemers mean Tohaa now have Counterintelligence. That's huge for aggressive, turn one makaul play (or Preceptor play if you're a man of taste like myself who likes his attack pieces to have 6-4 move). Especially given that it's aggressively costed, you aren't necessarily losing orders to include. Completely new, not something thats funktion isn't already occupied.

    Second, even a conservative take on the Stratocloud ("a piece of equipment that generates a Low Visibility and a Saturation Zone around the model in possession of it that is the size of a Circular Template. This zone moves along with them" to quote Helois) means we can now combine a low vis zone (not nimbus!) with a saturation zone effect to generate optimal anti-link firepower. I've played two games using this equipment with the rule as spoiled by Helois and engaging a Cyberdancer-buffed Dakini sniper with full link bonuses and effectively stripping all those bonuses and engaging it with a BS12 B4 spitfire against a now-BS13 B1 sniper was exceptional. The closest we've got to this already is the Nimbus zone, which isn't nearly as effective and needs an order and dice rolls to set up. Completely new and improved take on an existing element, improving over an existing funktion.

    The Kriigel for 24pts is pricey but Pheroware: Eraser is a Jammer++. Even if you want to argue that the price tag makes him hard to include, the closest we've had to duplicating this effect in the past is Symbiobombs, which required us to give up Symbiomates and was single use. This is totally new and is going to be massively impactful in scenarios like Armoury. Completely new, not something thats funktion isn't already occupied.

    And on top of all that we still don't know where all the links go in Spiral, what possible elements the Tri-Core might be linkable with from amongst those 'special' links, what Chaksa Longarms or Greif operators do, and so on and so forth. So not only are we still short a whole lot of potentially interesting information, but at bare minimum what we do know is interesting and challenging.

    My personal take at this point is that Spiral will be less overtly powerful and reliable than regular Tohaa, but that the asymetric/left field game will be strong. A sectorial for people who want to mess with their opponents. That's fascinating, and especially if a few links possibilities that I'm optimistic might occur fall into place, we've got some real cool possibilities. Meanwhile, vanilla Tohaa has a bunch of new stuff. The mere fact that any vanilla Tohaa list now could have counterintelligence changes your games even if you don't take a single new model! Vanilla tohaa has benefited just by spiral's new profiles existing.

    So for goodness sake stop coming in and shitting on everyone's parade, there's a bunch of new players and you're just dragging people down.
     
    #18 RobertShepherd, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  19. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    1,638
    Note: I didn't mention Kiuutans because I'm still figuring out how to play them (they're exciting but very tricky) or Keil-Sans because I don't know how they link yet and I'll need to play them a few times with good and average metachem rolls (there are basically no bad ones) to see if the randomness is something I like.

    Reex are pretty average but whatever, they make good Kaurii sentinel proxies and you can use them linked in Spiral.
     
  20. DustGod

    DustGod Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    206
    Oh this is a selling point for me! I've taken in as Much "Spiral Corps" as they have given and been studying Tohaa like a brand new player would...
    This Pheroware: Eraser is Killer outside of single use...
    The Anti-Rambo Effect is in the houuuuse!
    That Hac Tao, Shinobu, Sheskin, Achilles, Swiss Guard... a little less scary.
    Same with Pain Trains... Looking forward to this.
    Mirrorball and Smoke...
    "You caaaant seeee meeee"
    With all the Heavy Flamers What not to love?

    Draal Saboteurs! Dodging on 15, Fwd Deployment lvl2 with Minelayer, Pulzar, SMG, Stratocloud, Stealth... With a Mate or Bomb.... Whaaaa! GTFOH!!!!!
    Can't wait
     
    Abrilete, Cothel and RobertShepherd like this.