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Crazy Koalas a little help with these self-destructive little ones

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WillRoarke, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'd love for it to work that way, but you declare who the boost is against when you declare boost, before you measure for ZoC. By the time you are at the resolution step where you measure to see if they were actually inside your ZoC, it is too late to declare another ARO target, is it not?

    To be fair, this is not the first time this has come up, and playing it the more logical way (choosing a target that is in ZoC if your first choice happened to be outside), seems to be the consensus on how it should be done. The problem is that the rules are written contradictorily in this case.

    In the most general sense, how is the obligatory tag supposed to be played when this line is in the rules: "If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost"?
     
    T. Rex Pushups likes this.
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    1. You got an ARO because a trooper activated inside ZOC of the Koala
    2. You declared Boost (fulfilling the Obligatory requirements of Boost).
    3. When resolving Boost it becomes apparent that the requirements were not met as your target was not in ZOC
    4. Attack becomes an Idle and the weapon is Expended.

    There's nothing grey about that interaction. It's literally the same as '2 models move into LOF of a Jaguar with Panzerfaust, you ARO at the more distant one; during resolution it becomes apparent that they're out of range, attack becomes and Idle and the weapon is Expended'. @Triumph You're focusing on the fact that Boost is obligatory to declare and ignoring that it's not obligatory to declare it successfully: once you've declared it, the Obligatory trait means nothing (which is why it's literally the same as the Jaguar example).
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    No it's not the same. The Panzerfaust example is a legal declaration, you can declare the BS attack only to find it's out of range. The requirements for declaring the BS attack are LOF, you get LOF just find yourself out of range which is what wastes the shot.


    Perimeter weapons are different from BS attacks.

    If you don't fulfill the requirements you can't declare this ARO. This is the point of my argument not the attack being obligatory, it's the fact that you don't fulfill the requirements to get an ARO in the first place. The koalas don't get to the step of being able to waste their charges by being out of range, because if they are out of range, they unlike a panzerfaust can't declare their ARO because they don't even get an ARO in the first place.

    Panzerfaust = Declare shot then measure for rangebands

    Koalas = Measure for ZOC then declare if a target has actually provoked an ARO.
     
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    If anything the situation is the most similar to attempting to dodge into the trigger area of a mine. As the FAQ states, if you pass the phys test the mine goes off, if you fail the phys test (or lose a F2F roll if that was involved) then the mine does not go off.

    Perimeter weapons behave just like this. Or would you argue that you are able to attempt to fail to dodge into the range of perimeter weapons to attempt to waste their charges?
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Which means that the obligatory label is pointless entirely, because a cautious player will simply not declare it if uncertain and an exploitative player will never be certain until it suits them :(
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is specious. A model cannot Dodge into range of a Perimeter item and set it off. Active / Reactive does for that.

    You can make Invalid declarations, the rules for that are covered in the Order Expenditure Sequence:
    Just trust me on this. Stop trying to look at Koalas too deeply. Just play it as I've told you to. It's better for everyone's sanity.

    No. Because I'm describing a situation where the Koala got an ARO. The result you're describing happens if you expend the Koala in situations when the Koala did not get an ARO (and why I think expending Disposable equipment when no ARO was generated is unequivocably a Bad Thing). The equivalent situation is where the Jaguar does not have LOF and the target was outside of ZOC, so no ARO was generated.

    In a situation I was discussing there are two viable targets one of which obviously caused an ARO and the other one may have: a cautious player declares against the one that certainly is inside ZOC whereas a confident player declares against the iffy but more rewarding target.This is a reasonable gameplay decision.

    Tl;dr if during resolution it turns out there was no ARO then you proceed as if the ARO was never declared. However, if there was an ARO but the declared ARO failed to meet it's requirements then the ARO becomes an Idle.
     
    #26 inane.imp, Jan 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Ok I see where we're differing here. AROs:

    From Order sequences, highlighted for clarity. You still need to see if you are allowed to ARO the activated trooper in the first place. If your opponent activates 2 troopers at once for whatever reason, you still need to check whether or not your models have possible AROs against the activated troopers. You need to find out if you can actually ARO against one, both, or neither. If this means for Koalas because 99% of times you're not gonna have LOF, that you need to check ZOC, then you check ZOC before actually moving on to declaring the ARO.

    This is why the Koala can check, then pick.
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    You're not allowed to measure ZoC until later in the Order Expenditure Sequence.
     
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  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I take measurements from step 7 as applying to range bands as it's written in the context of resolving MODs for the roll, because if you try to take step 7 literally to mean all measurements you can't properly fulfill the requirements of step 4 to check whether you can react which makes the sequence of the order break down.
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I see where you went wrong. The way you're reading that would allow you to declare ZOC AROs after the resolution step (ie when you measure and check which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper). Because by 'pick' you mean 'declare' (a declaration contains all relevant details ie target), so you're saying that a Koala can measure ZoC and then declare Boost.

    That's explicitly NOT how it's played. See the FAQ.

    It's a little awkward because that FAQ is singular, and we're dealing with multiple troops.

    You declare the Zoc ARO in response to the trooper activating within ZoC. If there are multiple potential targets you pick which one you want to ARO against. If any troops are in ZoC resolve the ARO, but if not, the ARO is lost.

    How do you resolve an ARO that fails it' requirements? See Order Declaration Sequence: it becomes an Idle.
    -----
    You can make an argument that a Koala that picks wrong (ie a target outside of ZoC) isn't expended by reading it as follows:
    You declare the Zoc ARO in response to the trooper activating within ZoC. If there are multiple potential targets you pick which one you want to ARO against. If any that troops are is in ZoC resolve the ARO, but if not, the ARO is lost. This is BAD as it means that if you 'estimate' wrong you're rewarded or you read 'lost' as become an idle, and you run into the problem Mahtamori described before.

    But it doesn't support an argument that a Koala that declared Trooper A a target gets to choose a different trooper B in the resolution step when it turns out Trooper A wasn't valid.
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Correct as per the FAQ I just quoted. Welcome to the fun that is ZoC AROs. Now go away and learn to guess 8" accurately. :)
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    If the FAQ says this, then step 4 has either been mis-written or mistranslated because it clearly says to do the opposite.

    In this case anyway I agree with you, the wording on the FAQ is the ARO is lost rather than performing an idle. So, as written in the FAQ the koala doesn't wind up expending itself.
     
    #32 Triumph, Jan 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the Infinity rules forum, you must be new here. We prefer the term 'clarified'. :P

    (But in all seriousness, a good hearted welcome to the fun that is trying to make the complex interactions of Infinity work).
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Hah, good one.
     
  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Just to see if I've got it for myself after all this (with ones I'm still not sure of):
    1. Single trooper moves to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala declares boost. Turns out they are inside ZoC. Resolve 'splosion as normal.
    2. Single trooper moves to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala declares boost. Turns out they are outside ZoC. Koala stays put (not expended).
    3. Single trooper moves to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala does not declare boost. Turns out they are outside ZoC. Koala stays put.
    4. Single trooper moves to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala does not declare boost. Turns out they are inside ZoC....... can't happen because koala can't not declare boost??? (refer to #1)
    5. Single trooper moves to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala declares boost. Trooper then moves further so that they are clearly in ZoC of koala. Upon measuring, the trooper was not actually in ZoC of koala after the first move. Wait, what?!
    6. Two troopers move to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala declares boost on nearer target. They are inside ZoC. Good to go.
    7. Two troopers move to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala declares boost on farther target. They are inside ZoC. Good to go.
    8. Two troopers move to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala declares boost on farther target. They are outside ZoC, but the nearer target is inside ZoC. Koala is expended, but hits nothing???
    9. Two troopers move to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala declares boost on farther target. The two troopers move as a second short skill such that both are now inside ZoC, but the farther one was not when the ARO was declared (nearer one was in ZoC on ARO declaration). Koala is expended, but hits nothing?
    10. Two troopers move to the edge of ZoC of koala. Koala declares boost on farther target. The two troopers move as a second short skill such that both are now inside the ZoC, but neither one was actually inside ZoC when the ARO was declared. Koala stays put?
    Is this the most sane way to make sense of the obligatory nature of boost?
    Oh man.... my head hurts.
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    4. Seems suspicious because that would violated the order of declaration and force what is essentially a takeback for the opponent, which in turn can have serious consequences for above all long range HD troopers.
    8. This one is inconsistent with 2.
    9. & 10. This one is clear and has been solved - if the target moves into range, it's all fine and dandy and you get to Boost/Hack/Change Face.

    4 and 8 needs clarifications, but in case of 4 only if 8 is correct.
     
  17. multor

    multor Member

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    This is how I got it:
    8. Two troopers potentially trigger Koala´s ARO. So, Koala has two AROs to declare. Koala´s player declare´s boost, clearly (!) defining which trooper is targeted first. If first target is in range: boom (second ARO wasted). If first target is out of range, first ARO becomes idle and the process will be repeated for second ARO.
     
  18. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    You don't get two AROs, though. In any situation where you are moving more than one model at a time, you only get one ARO.
     
  19. multor

    multor Member

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    You´re right, you don´t get two AROs as only one of them will be resolved.There is only one ARO. But you have to declare and define two AROs. Otherwise you come into violation of obligatory Boost if your first selected ARO target is not in range.
     
  20. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that 4 is suspicious. But how else are you supposed to resolve the Obligatory label when you can only measure after declaration? The only sane way I can think of is that you declare whenever there is a possibility, but don't expend the koala unless the target actually makes it into the ZoC*.

    It's good to know that 9 & 10 were just me missing a previous clarification.

    *As for 8, that's what I thought @ijw was saying on the first page. And is a special case of #4 where there was a valid target after all, but you declared boost against an ultimately invalid target. If the koala is not expended in this case, then it is (situationally) exploitable by the reactive player to save their koalas from being detonated by declaring boost against something that is out of ZoC that also took part in the order.