1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Cover firing from out of sight

Discussion in 'Rules' started by alchahest, Apr 13, 2018.

  1. alchahest

    alchahest Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    43
    Let's say I have an Anathematic, and have covered his movement using white noise from an Umbra - he moves through the white noise into cover, completely inside the WN template the whole time.

    the only people who would have had line of sight to him are MSV troops. Tohaa snipers, for example - they of course cannot see him at any time during his movement as the WN occured in the order prior to the Anathematic's, and completely covered him during the movement.

    When the Anathematic then shoots the MSV from cover as it's second short skill, the snipers do get the opportunity to shoot back with extremely poor modifiers - nothing for the anathematic's camo, but with the out of line of sight penalty. Would the Anathematic gain the cover bonus it acquired at the end of it's movement, or is the order simultaneous and despite not having LOS until the anathematic shoots from cover, would they just have the -6 for being out of LOS?

    thank you!
     
  2. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,153
    Likes Received:
    10,466
    There's nothing in the White Noise or Zero Visibility Zone rules that overrides the default rule about shooting the active trooper at any point of their movement path.
     
    chromedog and xagroth like this.
  3. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2017
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    975
    So you're saying that you can choose to either shoot at -6 if you choose a point within the WN zone or the -3 from cover depending on the point of movement you choose for the ARO?
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,153
    Likes Received:
    10,466
    What? No, that's not in the situation.
    So the reactive trooper can choose to shoot the Anathematic before the reach cover (-6) or after they reach cover (-9 and an ARM/BTS bonus).
     
    xagroth, FatherKnowsBest and Robock like this.
  5. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2017
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    975
    Oh whoops I missed the "completely in WN the whole time" part at the end, my bad xD I thought it was asking in the context of being in cover while leaving WN
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,153
    Likes Received:
    10,466
    Yeah, in that case you'd be able to choose to shoot in cover and outside the Visibility Zone.
     
  7. alchahest

    alchahest Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    43
    with that said - a tall enough building ALSO blocks line of sight. if you walk out of base to base with the far side of a building then slide up so that your opponent only has visibility on you while you're on cover, can they shoot you while out of cover? is White Noise different to other types of LOS blocking in this way?
     
  8. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    885
    Likes Received:
    1,304
    You can only shoot to where you have Line of Fire. When you add a Zero Visibility Zone to the mix, basically what is happening is that you don't have LoF through the Zone at all, but because someone attacks you, you are allowed to shoot back as if the ZVZ was not present, but at a -6 modifier.

    Total Cover still applies to block LoF, as always. So if someone was out of Cover but behind Total Cover, you can't shoot them. If they reach cover first, and THEN move into your LoF, you can now shoot, but at no point do you have a legitimate point to shoot at that was out of cover.
     
    Robock and Hecaton like this.
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,561
    Likes Received:
    4,434
    It's worth noting, though, that the general consensus seems to be that if you do have LoF to them at some point during the order when they're not in smoke, you have to fire at that point. So say if someone starts outside of your LoF, because they're in a zero-v zone, then walks towards you leaving it, and crossing into the shotgun +6 band, you're forced to retaliate within 8," even if it means you're forced to use your pistol or the bad bands on your rifle.
     
  10. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    885
    Likes Received:
    1,304
    This statement is not the same thing as

    this example.

    If the attacker does not shoot from within or through the ZVZ then nothing triggers the ability to return fire at a -6. If the attacker is shooting after they already left smoke, you have to ARO at that point because that's when you have LoF.

    This is not the same thing as needing to ARO at a point outside of ZVZ when they ARE shooting you from within the ZVZ.
     
    toadchild and ijw like this.
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,071
    Likes Received:
    7,604
    In the example of an MSV2 model leaving a ZVZ; line of fire isn't established until after all skill declarations have been done, does that not create a rare timing in Infinity?

    Say a Hsien with Multi Rifle is inside smoke, within 7" of an Odalisque (BSG, Sixth Sense) who's not in the zone. Hsien moves into cover, away from the Odalisque and then out of the Smoke. Odalisque declares shoot with AP mode. Hsien declares shoot with Shock mode. During resolution, does the Hsien's player declare from what point they shoot first or does the Odalisque do that first? If the Odalisque declares first, that means the only option for trajectory would be to the Hsien, outside of 8", into cover (for -3) - meaning the Hsien might then take the opportunity to shoot at the Odalisque from inside the smoke where the Odalisque doesn't have cover, but if the Hsien declares first doing the same would give the Odalisque an opportunity to shoot back ignoring smoke penalties when Hsien is out of cover (i.e. +6)
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,153
    Likes Received:
    10,466
    I assume you mean the firing points? LoF is established before and after every Skill declaration, or you'd never be able to declare BS Attack (LoF Required to the target).

    In the case of working out who chooses their firing point first, it's the active player, see the first FAQ on http://infinitythewiki.com/en/BS_Attack.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,071
    Likes Received:
    7,604
    I'm talking about the edge cases (which risks being more common due to fireteam bonuses) where it's better to declare BS Attack through ZVZ for one of the model without MSV while the model with MSV2 would rather declare without shooting through ZVZ.

    So, do I take this as that the Odalisque may not shoot the Hsien through the ZVZ unless the Hsien declares shooting points as traversing through the ZVZ?
    And if the Odalisque is doing the movement against a BSG-armed MSV2 trooper, the MSV2 trooper doesn't need to declare shooting point if using AP mode until after the Odaliaque has lost their chance to shoot through the ZVZ?
     
  14. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    697
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    That is what it says in the bullet points. If the attacker's chosen line of fire doesn't cross the zero visibility zone, then those bullet points don't apply.

    But there's a better edge case that you can construct where it becomes impossible to determine whether ARO has been granted:
    Model A has a visor, standing in a position where a zero visibility zone is between it and Model B, without visor. B is facing such that A can move around the visibility zone to get line of sight to A, but B can't see A in that position.

    A declares Move and then shoot. B would get an ARO if A chooses to shoot through the visibility zone. But that decision is made after the opportunity for AROs has passed.

    To make that matter, suppose A wants to split its fire to shoot at B and another model C from the position where B would get an ARO. But is using this sequence to rob B of ARO.

    I don't think the FAQ was written considering the interaction with zero visibility zones, and may have been a "Well, this answer worked in 2nd edition".
     
    Mahtamori and Hecaton like this.