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Countermeasures Questions

Discussion in 'ITS' started by KestrelM1, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    I have a couple questions about certain Classified Objectives in Countermeasures:

    1. Sabotage: Normally the target for this Classified is chosen "after solving the Initative Roll." In the case of Countermeasures, when is the target for Sabotage chosen? After Initative, as described on the card? When the Sabotage card is drawn? Or some other time?

    Additionally, Sabotage does not say to "secretly" select a Scenery Building. Is the identity of the selected building open information in Countermeasures (or elsewhere)?

    2. Predator and Rescue: Both of these Classifieds have a "Bonus" condition that awards extra points. This brings up a couple questions:

    - When should these Classifieds be counted as "accomplished" - when only the standard requirements are finished, or do the bonus requirements need to be done as well?
    - If they are claimable only when the standard requirements are met, may claiming player accomplish the Bonus part of the card? If so, does that criteria need to be met before claiming the card as "accomplished," or can it still be accomplished even after claiming the card? If it can still be accomplished, does it have to be before the end of the current turn, or at the end of any turn?
    - In the case that the card does not need to be claimed immediately, then at what point must a player decide whether they are claiming the card? For example, a player is trying to score Predator and has killed 2 models in CC. They want to try for a third for the bonus point. Would they be able to delay claiming the card in order to try for the bonus objective? And if they fail the bonus objective can they still claim the card before the end of their turn?

    3. HVT: Designation: this Classified requires two successful FO/Spotlight attacks against "the enemy HVT." In Countermeasures, must both attacks be against the same HVT in order to accomplish this objective? And if not, are both targeted HVTs removed after the objective is complete?

    Thank you for any help you can provide.
     
    #1 KestrelM1, Sep 3, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
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  2. Melchior

    Melchior Well-Known Member

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    there are some valid questions here, following.
     
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  3. WarHound

    WarHound Well-Known Member

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    Since i'm in an event this weekend with Countermeasures as the first mission, i am very interested in this too.

    @kurrelgyre , what will your ruling be?
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    1. The only option that makes any sense, is to do it when the card is drawn. You don’t publicly nominate the target in normal play because your Classifieds aren’t public, I don’t see why that would change in this mission.

    2. I don’t see any way to fulfil the extra bits unless you do it in the same Order, as you replace the card as soon as the main part is completed.

    3. See the text about the HVTs. Each one can only be used to fulfil one Classified, doing this would allow you to fulfil two Classifieds off the same HVT.
     
  5. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Just my thoughts...
    a) I think it has to be selected 'secretly', because otherwise (in other Missions) you would tell your opponent what your classified objective is, and then it would no longer be classified...
    b) I think every player should choose a building after initiative but before deployment, just to be prepared if this objective comes up during the mission.

    I think that both objectives count as accomplished without the bonus, as the bonus is just that: a bonus.
    So the question that remains is if you are able to gain the bonus at all, and I would say 'no', because you do not gain objective points for the 'Classified Objective', but the 'Current Mission Objective'. In other words: The mechanic for gaining objective points does not refer to the objective point value/text on the classified objective card, but the objective point value/text in the mission's description.

    I think you need to target the same HVT twice, because
    a) usually there is only one enemy HVT
    b) the mission states that 'Each HVT may only be used to accomplish one Classified Objective',
    so you are not allowed to FO two different HVTs to accomplish this objective.
     
  6. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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    So would you be able to FO/Spotlight two different HVT's (once each) to accomplish HVT: Designation? But doing so would mean both of the FO'd/Spotlighted HVT's would be removed.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    See daszul’s post, directly above yours.
     
  8. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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    "Each HVT may only be used to accomplish one Classified Objective -
    once a Classified Objective targeting an HVT has been completed, that
    HVT model is removed from the game table."​

    I believe that text as specificly implying that an HVT can only be used to accomplish 1 Classified objective before being removed. I think you should be able target two different HVT's for HVT:designation, just both of them would be removed after its completion (so it likely would not be the best move as you would be limiting your future ability to complete further classifieds. However, @ijw if you still disagree I will stand by your ruling.
     
    #8 NorthernNomad, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  9. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

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    Furthermore the Extreme version of HVT:Designation is even stranger.

    HVT: DESIGNATION (extreme)
    REQUIREMENTS: Forward Observer or Spotlight Hacking Program.
    Objective: The player must succeed at two Forward Observer Rolls
    or two Spotlight Hacking Program Rolls against the enemy HVT
    model and against their own HVT model. The player is authorized
    to perform this type of Attack against the HVT model.​

    As written this seems to mean that acomplishing this objective you would remove one of your own HVT's without giving your opponent a chance to use it.

    "once a Classified Objective targeting an HVT has been completed, that
    HVT model is removed from the game table."​
     
    #9 NorthernNomad, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  10. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    or, you would not be able to complete at all (see reasoning above that you cannot FO two different HVT), a dud objective that is unacheivable.
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Why wouldn’t you be able to complete it? It’s not accomplished until you manage four lots of Targeted - 2 on an enemy HVT and 2 on one of your own.
     
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  12. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    because it counts as a single objective cards and you cannot have 2 HVT be participants for the same obective.

    edit: or as daszul said :
    b) the mission states that 'Each HVT may only be used to accomplish one Classified Objective',
    so you are not allowed to FO two different HVTs to accomplish this objective.


    Therefore how will you FO both your HVT and an enemy HVT for the accomplishemnt of that single extreme-mode objective ?
     
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  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Because you MUST target two different HVTs to do the Classified.
     
  14. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    So "Must" overrides "Can't" then?
    I sure hope this mission is fun, because it looks like a pain lol
     
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  15. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    i was looking up the cards and noticed for predator... It says end of game, from the missions this translates to end of player turn. So if you have 2 kill, you don't take the card right away. You only take it end of turn, assuming the enemy player also didn't complete two CC kills (in which case you both score it). Which also means you have time to do a third kill, which may or may not count.

    Rescue is also end of game meaning end of turn. So if you casevac an allied trooper on an order, you have plenty of time left to spend additional orders to move them to the enemy half table.
     
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  16. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    I don't quite agree. The card text RAW is :
    (taken from a word file somewhere, but i do believe the author wrote the correct text)

    "this objective", lower case refer to Predator/Rescue no matter what kind of Objective it is.
    "gives 1 OP in addition" well it gives it in addition.
    "to the stated Objective Points for the scenario’s Classified Objectives" do we still have mission that gives 2OP for a Classified Objective ? In any case, i agree with you that "the scenario" being "countermeasure" currently give noting for it, it gives OP for Current Mission Objective, not for Classified Objective. But that means it gives nothing, 0, for the Classified Objective.
    You still get the additional OP on top of the normal 0 OP. It is a bonus.

    Also for Rescue, was it corrected ? As it is worded, if you score the bonus (be in enemy half) you automatically fail the base objective (be in your own half).
     
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  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Doh! That’s a very good point, as an end-of-game Classified it won’t be checked until the end of the Player Turn.
     
  18. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    Played this mission three times now, and it is suuuuper fun. Definitely one of my favorites now.

    For Sabotage all we did was just tell the judge/third party what building we wanted to sabotage when the card was flipped. Not that hard.
     
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  19. Adra

    Adra New Member

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    Could it be considered that the Extream Mode classified deck doesn't apply to this mission given that the mission only specifically mentions the Standard Mode deck, and none of the other classified deck section of the ITS document would seem to apply to this mission?
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    From the mission:

    EXTREME MODE
    This scenario can be played at an extreme level of difficulty. In this Mode, players must use the Extreme Classified Objective Deck (The red one).