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Corregidor year, but Bakunin still awaiting for updated sculpts.

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Lothair, Dec 4, 2022.

  1. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    In N3, it was easier (and cheaper) to put a TR bot and then put marksmanship on it with a hacker, so i personally didnt use the sin-eaters very often, but now with assisted fire locked in the EVO, i see the sin eaters more viable
     
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  2. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Still wandering through the Night

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    The pricing for Neurocinetics and/or MI definitely needs reviewed. But I think they would become useable if they were able to join Reverends fireteams, especially the spitfire and Mk12. Having some other unit do their firing while they get in position makes them useful. And of course dogged or something wouldn't hurt.
     
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  3. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Main issues with expensive aro pieces is that they're either easy to gank in one go (to fix they need more wounds and armour) or they're easy to mod-stack. (Needs some form of msv to prevent smoke n shoot tactics)
     
  4. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    But isn´t that the issue with every kind of ARO-Piece? TR-Drones, Atalanta, Sin-Eater, or also 2Wound/NWI Units like the obligatori HI Missle launcher in link ....basicly everything whats not in a Camo- or HD-State. And Sin-Eater has a quite solid defense with Mimetism and ARM3.
    TBH I like running a Sin-Eater, in most of my games he did not kill a lot of units but as a solid road block.
    If you place him alone on a high tower, well.... then he will die very soon. but with overlapping AROs...he can be quite nasty to grind out of his position.
    On the other hand i also had some games were he just died very ungloriously. In the end there can alsways happen a Daylami coordinated PF-Order.

    I like the Sin-eaters how they are, profile and design. Maybe Shock immunity would be a nice addition, I would take a point discount every day, and the MSR-Profile is quite a meme, but MK12 and B4 weapons are not too bad.
     
    #44 anubis, Jan 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
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  5. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    The problem I find with them is that against light troops, neurocinetics is enough of a defence so the route to deal with it is to smoke n shoot, which ingores the extra layer of mimetic defense that you're paying all those points for anyway.
    For me if you want an aro piece to die to smoke n shoot, just take a TR bot and save the points.
     
  6. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    as said: that can happen to every ARO piece.But not everyone has in every list the Smoke + MSV trick built in. Same argument you have to deal with MSV-ARO pieces. Why play them, when u can white noice them? The argument limits you to use nothing but sixth sense ARO-pieces with at least MSV 1. Every unit can either be hard countered or killed with little offert when standing on its own.
     
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  7. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    My point is that as it is, it's largely pointless because I can just take a TR bot for less points and it'll die just as effectively in most scenarios as the sin eater but is usually easier to res back up. I can put the saved points into a morlock and have more attacking power, smoke, DTW and CC coverage.
    Bakunin could easily lose the sin eater and the faction wouldn't really be any worse for it. Either respec it to be more resilient, cheaper or phase it out imho
     
  8. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    How about AVA 0 TR bot + some weird *exclusive* loadouts? (Like, I dunno, Forward deployment... or albedo)
     
    #48 Lucian, Jan 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
  9. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    If you´re "most scenarios" always include MSV + Smoke, then I am defenetly with you. In every other scenario I could not disagree more. There are armies with smoke but no MSV. And there is a whole faction without smoke.
    BS 13 means no matter what happens: you still can crit on 1s, something a TR-bot cannot.
    Mimetism means an additional -3 Mod for all the units without MSV, and there are way more units without then with. Also: If you don´t have smoke and still want to negate the mimetism, you have to bring a MSV unit into position and not anyone, like you would for TR-bot. MSV means more expensive, means more risk in case you lose the fight.
    Higher PH and ARM3 also make him more resistant against DTW aswell as hits overall.

    Yes, the Sin-Eater HMG is about 5 to 7 Points more expnsive. That´s a Flash-bot or a Morlock. But for a TR-bot shooting euqal to the Sin-Eater you need Marksman, meaning: EVO-bot for 15 / 0,5.

    Maybe it´s a case of personal opinion, but there ARE scenarios, were the Sin-Eater outpreforms a TR-bot by a huge amount. The only thing were the TR-bot has the advantage: You can use it as an active attack piece due to TR instead of Neurocinetics.
    As said, maybe personal flavor. I had games the Sin-Eater died just as you said: Smoke, MSV, dead. And there were games, when my opponent just did not get rid of him and could not stop burning orders into BS13 B4 HMG.
     
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  10. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm trying to think of there's anyone with no smoke and no msv but nothing is coming to mind. If you've got smoke, you can just ignore the sineater and go boop buttons if that's what the mission needs so whilst there is a usage case for one, I stand by the statement that if the profile was deleted, there wouldn't be an uproar.
     
  11. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    So every non MSV troop should be deleted by your analysis as they can't prevent things from happening inside smoke. I think you are overestimating the prevalence of smoke by a lot.
     
  12. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    I'm not mate, I'm thinking of a generic 10man ITS event at a local store. Knowing your set of missions ahead of time, any faction that has access to smoke is gonna run at least some in one list.
    If you've got access to msv, you're gonna have it in at least one list. There's enough of it around to reasonably expect it in ²/³ of your games in a day's ITS game, plus there are factions with eclipse and equivalent like mirrorball that negate both TR and sin eaters.
    In that kind of environment, is it worth paying a morlock's cost to upgrade/sidegrade to a sin eater?
    Or would most people skip it and go with other ARO tools?
    Everyone is gonna have their own take on it but I can't see it making many people's ITS lists.
     
  13. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Sin-Eaters are fine. They could use a small points-break but are otherwise functional. [Neurocinetics is an interesting rule, but does seem to be priced too high given the B1 in active turn disadvantage.]

    ARO pieces should not be judged in a vacuum. Their sectorial is their context. For Bakunin, that means Riot Grrl missile launchers. MSV1 missile launcher that Dodges amazingly when underranged is incredible. I field one in either a Core with whatever or in a Haris with 2xModerators most of the time.

    Adding a Sin-Eater to a RiotML turret is an excellent layered defense. Yes you can pie-slice them, smoke/white noise one, etc. etc. But that increases the order cost of the opponent’s advance, which is the whole point of ARO units. They will die or be avoided, but hopefully drain 2-3 orders in doing so. A doubled defense like Sin Eater HMG/Grrl ML will claim 3-5 orders, which will leave opponent either blunted or overextended unless they’re killing the overwatchers using Group 2 orders.

    Dogged would be both flavorful and functional on Sin-Eaters. Add that, and you’ve got a great unit that would see table time in 40-50% of lists.

    On another topic, I really really reeeeeeeally hope Riot Grrls don’t get nerfed, removed from Moderator links, or resculpted. They are really perfect where they are now.
     
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  14. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    No problem mate, i´ve got you covered :-)

    No Smoke:
    Varuna
    Military Order
    Accontencimento
    Neoterra
    Svalarheima
    Imperial Army
    OSS
    Onyx
    Foreign Company

    And with MSV it´s quite a thing:
    Caledonia has MSV 1 on a single modell, uxia. not the ideal modell for the Smoke-trick
    TAK has a single loadout on Frontoviks, the AP Sniper. So you need this exact modell in the right position.
    QK has Djanbazans, and Arslan, neither of them did i see in the last 4 years in a QK army.
    Foreign Company has 2 single load outs, Bolt and Brawler, with MSV. And no smoke.

    And to outpreform the Sineater in a straight up 1vs1 fight, all of them need at least 3 Friends in a link for sixth sense (except the brawler, cause MSV2)


    I think the Sin-eater is a very unique unit and I would miss it. Maybe he is a bit expensive for what he brings to the table, but at least he is not a unit everyone and his mum can start an argument about like "but sectorial XY has a nearly identical unit that costs 2 POINTS LESS AND HAS 2 CC MORE! CB GET YOUR SH!T TOGETHER"


    Smoke is a mighty tool in every army that it´s in. But it´s not uncounterable, especially with the huge buff on MSV 1 that came with N4. A good player expects that there will be blood ... i mean Smoke. Having no option to counter it is either a bold move based on the plan to get rid of every smoker/MSV unit asap, or optimisticly stupid. Sometimes there are not good options to hardcounter smoke via MSV of any sorts, and thats the moment of softcounters (DTW, sixth sense, mines,...)
    Smoke was a realy tough problem for me in my early days, especially with armies not having MSV 2 units. But i learned to play around it.



    +1
    Sin-Eaters are very one-dimensional: you place them in a good spot and never touch him again except with a doctor. Maybe use one order to reposition him later in the game, but normaly you will do it under the cover of smoke/eclipse.
    That´s what i meant is the big advantage of the TR-bot: in active turn it is a fast moving BS11 HMG with marksman-option. Thats a seriouse unit to have as a back up in case your main attack piece did bite the dust.

    This. A 100% this. Nothing to add.

    This or shock immunity, both beeing a stright up buff (and big ones aswell).


    I realy love the grrrls the way they are atm. When they get a (4th) redesign so shall it be, i´ve got enough of the ladys to either keep them as they are in case the new ones are not pretty. I Think the priority of modells beeing redisigned are the very old ones and the Centerpieces of the rework: Reverends of every flavor, Prowler, Zero, Lizard

    I am especially excited if they will redesign the Überfallkommando. I love the modells, but they are very small in scale compared to the nearly 32mm scale the modells tend to be novadays. Unfortunatly i will have to add them to my collection as my 3rd team of melee nukes. Unfortunatly :-D
     
  15. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Erm, all of those forces you listed have msv...
    Imperial also have smoke?
    I was asking if there was anything that had no msv _and_ no smoke.

    I think every faction in the game has something that can negate the sineater's defense or nullify it entirely with smoke/eclipse/mirrorball which was kind of my point; there's so much stuff that negates it, why am I paying the premium for a sineater when I can take other, cheaper options.
    You know if you're in an ITS event, there's gonna be some msv and there's gonna be smoke. Against a good chunk of factions, there'll be both at the same time.
    I know I'm being daft because literally any time anyone says anything sucks on here, someone comes out saying it's amazing and we end up 7 pages deep of misquoting and misunderstanding each other, yet I did it anyway.
     
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  16. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    My bad, wanted to write Invincible army, because there is no imperial army, just a service.

    Also misunderstood you on that one. In my world, to negate sin eaters defensive AND want to outpreform him you need both. The standard MSV unit does not always have BS 14 and/or Burst 5. And with neither of that u are gambling against B4 BS 13 as the baseline (rangeband camo mime not included, but also not everyone has MSV on Camos). Whatever, again: Scenarios in a vacuum are not very worth discussing.

    And my point still stands: Why should you then take an ARO anyways, if everything is easily negatable. My point is, to force the opponent to invest more resources (more special troops, additional troops with smoke, ...) to get rid of a ARO piece. But when your go-to ARO unit is the TR bot only, go for it, whatever works best for you. Other people have other experiences.

    Funny, how you say "I explained my opinion, but hell, it´s so annoying to try convincing him that i am right that I feel dumb about even trying", but when someone else makes his point its "he just disagrees with me cause he does not like my opinion and how can he not see sin eaters are shit".
    You made your point, I made mine. This is a very good conversation.

    But I think we can at least agree, that we are not just not on the same page, but in completly different books.
     
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  17. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    You can easily place a sineater in a good aro Spot and have a team with White noise or a repeater placed in Front of him. Or a eclipse grenade from an uberfall. Bakunin has more than enough tools to play around with. Sin eaters are a very special and characterful trooper with a in my eyes cool Model and design . Are they the greatest thing ever to Happen? Absolutely not, Neurocineticsis is a very lopesided skill which should give a dicount instead of costing points. But in some games it might do it's Job. So in my opinion bakunin would be poorer without the sin eater.
     
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