Coordinated Order & Surprise

I read Ieldin's point as that you would drop Camo even if you idled though which IJW specifically said wouldn't happen. A Camo unit out of LoF to the target of the CO is unable to declare the BS Attack and automatically declares Idle instead.

 

Because sometimes a fresh question on the same topic is easier to answer than asking about the on-going discussion, could someone more knowledgable than me clarify;

Situation: Adam the Akali, Bob the Bolt, and Chris the Crocman activates as part of a Coordinated Order. Adam has LOF to Damian the Dactyl, but Bob and Chris do not. The Coordinated Order is to shoot first, move later.
Q1: If Bob and Chris moves into LOF of Damian, will they shoot Damian at resolution after all?
Q2: If Chris stays out of LOF to Dactyl, will Chris be allowed to keep TO Camo state?
Naturally, they can't both be "yes", but from previous discussions I was under the illusion that Q2 at least should be "No", but answers so far has muddied this for me.

 

And the top cancellation clause of the camouflaged state reads:

*emphasis added

What rules am I missing that allows a camo marker to stay in marker state during a coordinated order where one of the declared short skills is BS Attack?

 

It's tough because there seem to be multiple terms used for the skills being talked about:

Declare - looks like something you can potentially do regardless of the validity of the skill choice under certain circumstances (G:sync/serv, coordinated orders, etc.)
Perform - what the trooper actually does at execution of the declared skill
Complete - I am assuming this is the same as perform
Use - this is a bit more amorphous to me as the language is specifically "...declare the use of a skill..." which seems to make it a lot like the previous two, but it's also not... I think?

 

I was answering the question of whether a Camo marker with LoF to the target could choose not to declare BS Attack.

 

But this is the part I'm not understanding. From the rules I quoted, the camo marker would be revealed even if it was out of sight because it is forced to declare the same skills.

 

It seems to come down to if you can you declare a skill that you do not fulfill the requirements for (LoF in this case)?

 

Which you can because a coordinated order and the G:sync/servant skills allow (force) you to.

 

I have a further question here, if I have a Myrmidon enomotarchos Fireteam wiht an AHD (let's say it's Myrm officer, Eudoros, AHD myrm and chain rifle myrm), and I'm inside of an enemy's Hacking Area (let's say a Moran's Repeater), if I declare Movement + Attack with Eudoros (against another enemy troop, without LoF to any enemy hacker or the Moran), do the Myrmidon AHD generates ARO from the enemy hackers?

That is to say, does the "support" part of the non-leader Fireteam members counts as Idle, or as the action declared by the leader without rolling dice?

In that same vein, I'm reasonably sure Patroclus can be linked to Achilles and, if Blondie fires, Pat won't be forced out of marker state, but... Damn XD

 

Good point, I'd missed that bit of the conversation. I think you're right.


As per the Coordinated Orders rules, everyone declares the same Skills, even if they then can't perform them. And declaring BS Attack is what breaks Camouflaged state, not the performing of the Skill.

From the Coordinated Order bullets:

• If one or more of the participants in the Coordinated Order is unable to complete any of the Short Skills of the Order, then they only complete those they can. However, for the purposes of ARO generation, these troopers count as having declared all Short Skills of the Order.

My emphasis. At no point does it say that the Skills declaration has changed.

And from the example: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coordinated_Orders#Coordinated_Order_example:_Failed_activation

'After selecting the Orc Troop as Spearhead and declaring the first Short Skill of the Order, Movement, the player measures and moves her four troopers. The Raicho declares its ARO, and it becomes apparent that there is no LoF between the TAG and one of the Fusiliers. In spite of this, the PanOceanian player declares a BS Attack against the Raicho with the second Short Skill of the Coordinated Order. The Fusilier without LoF will simply be unable to open fire. Specifically, the Fusilier does not perform the declared BS Attack, and just stands there instead. However, the Fusilier has been activated and for the purposes of ARO generation has declared the BS Attack the same as his comrades.'

So the BS Attack has still been declared by everyone, even though it's Requirements weren't met on declaration for everyone - in effect, the as long as one of the Coordinated troopers can fulfil the Requirements, the Skill gets declared, and then fails for the troopers that didn't fulfil the Requirements.

Note that Idle doesn't change the failed Skill declaration to Idle, but to performing an Idle (i.e. doing nothing):

• The trooper is also considered to perform an Idle when he has declared a Skill not allowed by the rules. In such situation, the ammunition of Disposable weapons or pieces of Equipment is spent, too.

Summary - the marker-state trooper will get revealed, regardless, because they have declared a Skill that would reveal them, and nothing changes that declaration.

 

OK so I just need to clarify, then... You can NOT choose to Idle one of your Coordinated troopers while the other Moves, is that correct?

Because in this other thread it looked like you were saying this was a legitimate play based on how OP had phrased the question.

https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/coordinated-moves-with-camo-tokens-and-regular-units.1168/

I need to know so I play this right should it come up...

 

Technically since there's no minimum on move you can declare move without physically moving even if you can't idle...

 

And move 1mm back and 1mm front... but the point is "the others fire, this dude here Idles".

 

Ah no I was answering @macfergusson about the Joan and the Crocman question. In a move you can effectively idle, but since declaring the bs attack is what reveals the trooper from the camo state, and you still have to declare the "exact same sequence of orders" I think that any camo trooper who's part of the coordinated order will be revealed when a bs attack is declared by the other troops in the order, even if the camo troop has no line of fire.