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Coordinated Order & Surprise

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by EvilJester, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. EvilJester

    EvilJester New Member

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    During a Coordinated Order involving two units in the Camo Marker state, when declaring "Surprise Shot!" can one of the units use the optional tag of Surprise Shot! to not perform the skill and stay in the Camo Marker state ?
     
  2. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    You can choose to idle, instead of performing the declared short skill. You will still activate, provoking AROs.
     
  3. EvilJester

    EvilJester New Member

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    So, let's say it was a Coordinated Order with 2 units in the Camo Marker state. First short skill is Move, both units move into view of an enemy.

    Enemy declares his ARO "Hold" against Camo Unit A.

    Second short skill for the Coordinated Order is "Surprise Shot!" However, Camo Unit A (that the enemy declared his ARO against) uses the Optional Tag on Surprise Shot to not perform the skill and idles to remain in the Camo Marker State (preventing the Enemy ARO from shooting)

    Camo Unit B uses the Surprise Shot! to shoot the enemy. Is that legal?
     
  4. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Are delay ARO's specified against a certain target? My understanding is the model would be able to react to Camo marker B in the situation above?

    Edit. Oh yep I just found the thread on it.

    So yes, the described situation is legit... and quite powerful.
     
    #4 Alphz, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  5. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Delay is tied to a specific Camo marker, yes.
     
  6. Deltabeoulve

    Deltabeoulve Member

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    So, according to coordinated orders the group must declare the same skill. So the question is seeing as the group has to declare the same order, then by declaration you would lose Camo...as you lose it on declaring the order not the execution of the order. At least thats how Im reading the rules. (We have been arguing this for a bit so thats why we brought it to the rules forum.)
     
  7. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    It shouldn't be.

    "If one or more of the participants in the Coordinated Order is unable to complete any of the Short Skills of the Order, then they only complete those they can. However, for the purposes of ARO generation, these troopers count as having declared all Short Skills of the Order.". The actual skill declared is BS Attack and neither of them are prevented from doing so. Surprise Shot is optional in the sense you don't have to use it but since you can sill perform a straight up BS Attack the camo marker would still fire and thus void it's Camo state.

    As above, the ARO is generated after the first skill declared (LoF, yadda, yadda) and if against a camo marker could choose to delay it. Check the examples on the Wiki at the bottom of that page.
     
  8. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    You can Idle instead of carrying out the declared skill.

    For example, you could declare a Move - Move, and do the first Move on Troop 1, and the second Move on camo marker 2, just declaring Idles for the Moves you don't want a particular troop to participate in. They both count as activating for purposes of AROs as soon as you include them in the Coordinated Order, but they don't necessarily have to participate in each part of the declared Coordinated Order.
     
  9. EvilJester

    EvilJester New Member

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    By that logic you are saying that you have use the skill to say you are optionally NOT using the skill.


    The actually skill declared is Surprise Shot! It is it's own short skill and different from BS Attack.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Surprise_Shot
     
    #9 EvilJester, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  10. Deltabeoulve

    Deltabeoulve Member

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    You cant pick and choose who does what in a coordinated order. It specifically says they MUST USE the same skills. One can't choose to idle while the other shoots.
     
  11. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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  12. EvilJester

    EvilJester New Member

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  13. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Sorry EvilJester, it's getting late and I may be not clear.

    Page 33, "The player must specify, at the time of the BS Attack declaration, which BS Weapon, Equipment or Special Skill the trooper will use. Furthermore, if the chosen BS Weapon, Equipment or Special Skill has different Ammunition or options, he must select which one at that moment."

    You declare a BS Attack and then pick and choose from your options, one of which is the use of Surprise Shot.

    Such a declaration is a trigger for immediately cancelling the Camo state as noted by Deltabeoulve above.
     
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  14. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Yup, all involved troopers declare the same skill even if it then reverts to Idle due to not meeting the requirements, so all markers involved will be revealed as declaring a BS Attack meets a cancellation clause of Camouflaged/Impersonation/Holoecho.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    My 2 cents here:

    The Wiki (check later with the rulebook, however...) has an example of 2 TO camo markers + 1 ORC trooper declaring a coordinated order, and a Raicho in front of them.

    The Raicho declares Delay against 1 camo token. So yeah. You can idle with the camo the enemy declared delay against...

    Caveat: this all depends on the camo being able to declare Idle when the others declare a BS attack, of course, something I'm not sure it's legal if that camo can declare the BS attack.
     
    #16 xagroth, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    As far as I'm aware, no, because of this Requirement in the Coordinated Orders rule:
    • All participating troopers must declare and execute the exact same sequence of Skills.
    My emphasis. The only time the Skills become an Idle is if one of the troopers is unable to declare the Skill, for example if one of your Camo markers didn't have LoF to the target. The Optional label for Surprise Shot is irrelevant as the Skill is declared anyway.

    To summarise, as long as everyone in the Coordinated Order can declare the Skills, they must declare them. If you want one of the Camo markers to stay unrevealed, you're going to have to keep it out of sight of the target, or not reveal any of the troopers.
     
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  17. Ieldin Soecr

    Ieldin Soecr Well-Known Member

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    Isn't he revealed regardless because of this part of the Coordinated Order rules:

    • If one or more of the participants in the Coordinated Order is unable to complete any of the Short Skills of the Order, then they only complete those they can. However, for the purposes of ARO generation, these troopers count as having declared all Short Skills of the Order.

    in combination with the example given for coordinated Orders:

    Coordinated Order example: Failed activation
    To see what happens when one of the coordinated troopers is unable to carry out one of the Skills declared, we will go back to the previous example of 3 Fusiliers and 1 Orc Troop against a Raicho.

    After selecting the Orc Troop as Spearhead and declaring the first Short Skill of the Order, Movement, the player measures and moves her four troopers. The Raicho declares its ARO, and it becomes apparent that there is no LoF between the TAG and one of the Fusiliers. In spite of this, the PanOceanian player declares a BS Attack against the Raicho with the second Short Skill of the Coordinated Order. The Fusilier without LoF will simply be unable to open fire. Specifically, the Fusilier does not perform the declared BS Attack, and just stands there instead. However, the Fusilier has been activated and for the purposes of ARO generation has declared the BS Attack the same as his comrades.

    I'm not 100% certain but I have played it that way since someone pointed that out to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
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  18. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    This is all related to ARO purposes only. I read it to say that they grant applicable AROs, but do not execute the actual skill declared.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Not when you combine it with @ijw's post above. It's pretty clear:

    - All troopers in a coordinated order declare the same set of skills (thus dropping all camo markers from camo state if a relevant skill was declared).
    - Those that cannot perform the declared skill (due to lack of LoF, or whatever) perform idle instead.
    - That idle still generates ARO's as if they had actually performed the skill declared.
     
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