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Coordinated Order and ARO baiting with Camo

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Tongfa, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. Tongfa

    Tongfa proudly selling out since 1991

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    This is just typical Aleph robot privilege showing up again. When will N4 liberate us from the deepstate fake news robot mafia

    (thanks for the clarification).

    Tanan's my boy. Let his sins be mine too.
     
  2. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    Did I get the example wrong? Tank hunters and metro have LoF to Kamau. Kamau has LoF only to metro.

    I agree that delay should be considered as "ARO-equivalent" in regards to the faq, but nothing in the rules actually support that. Delay isn't an ARO declaration (it doesn't trigger mines etc.). If there is a possibility to declare an ARO during 1st part of an order, it must be done or ARO is lost.
     
    #22 Tanan, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  3. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    If so, almost everyone in the thread has misread the original post. EDIT - and it's a Grunt not a Metro, please don't make the thread even more confusing!

    @Tongfa could you please confirm - does the Kamau have LoF to the two Camouflaged markers?

    Are you talking about Camouflaged/TO Camouflaged state? If so, it's right there in the text that lets you delay:
    • Bear in mind that when reacting to a CH: Camouflage or CH: TO Camouflage Marker, you may delay your ARO declaration until after the Marker declares its second Short Skill.
    My emphasis. You can't delay an ARO that you don't have.
     
  4. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    In the example OP provided, Kamau has LoF both to grunt and the markers. If there is no LoF to markers - then they cannot shoot Kamau either, and the whole thing is pointless.

    Edit: the only case where Kamau doesn't have LoF on markers, but they still can shoot him is when they are in its rear arc. Is that the case?
     
    #24 Gunmage, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  5. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    @ijw sure you can delay your ARO declarion in this case. It just gets lost, because you didn't declare it when you had the chance. :)

    And just be clear, I think that this isn't RAI. You should definitely be able to delay ARO declaration during coordinated order without losing the ARO.
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    If the Kamau delays against a Camo marker (and he must pick out which one!), then he can only declare ARO against it if he reveals himself.
     
  7. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I get what's the problem here. @Tanan , it's the case of "specific trumps general" - the general rule of "You have to declare your ARO as soon as you get the opportunity to" is trumped by specific rule of camo markers that allows ARO declaration delay. If it didn't, the delay would be illegal at all times, as you have an opportunity to declare Dodge or Discover with no delay against markers.
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    I don't understand, could you explain what you're saying? If you don't have an ARO to a trooper, you cannot delay against that trooper.

    Note that delaying against a Coordinated Camo marker has it's own specific example in the rules, so we know that it's both RAW and RAI that you can potentially 'lose' your ARO in this situation.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coord...d_Order_example:_Coordinating_Marker_troopers
     
  9. Tongfa

    Tongfa proudly selling out since 1991

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    yep.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @ijw the Grunt became a Metro in the 7th post.

    @Tanan in the situation you describe where the Kamau doesn't have LOF due to the arc being directed wrong we are in agreement; then the Kamau will be caught in the usual damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't where they can only ARO meaningfully against the weakest opponent - just like a TAG would - unless one member was also sufficiently close to trigger Sixth Sense.
     
  11. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    @ijw yes, but that example contradicts the auxbot faq which highlights cases where ARO is lost. Later FAQ takes precedence? Infinity is filled with cases where FAQ changes the way rules work.

    But this is a meaningless conversation. Everyone agrees that delay should be equivalent to an actual ARO. Delay can't be declared without LoF or ZoC.
     
    #31 Tanan, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Thanks.

    No, it doesn't contradict it.

    In the Coordinated Orders example, all three active troopers are in LoF. The Raicho must choose one of the troopers in LoF for their ARO. If they choose one of the Camo markers, they can potentially lose their ARO, just like they could when reacting to a solo Camo marker.

    In the Auxbot FAQ, only the Auxbot is in LoF or ZoC. The reactive trooper must choose one of the troopers in LoF for their ARO, but the only one in LoF is the Auxbot. This is identical to a Coordinated Order where only one trooper is in LoF.
     
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  13. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The discussion focussed a lot on the delay part of it, but not so much on the reveal part of it. I'd just like to add some clarification (feel free to correct me if I am wrong here)

    If one of the troopers is out of range, would they still get revealed?

    I was under the impression that merely declaring the skill revealed you, not so much performing it.

    You only check the range at resolution, and the declaration the skills are all happening before.

    We can't have a situation in which the active trooper declares shoots with his camo token, the Kamau declares shoot against the token now revealed and then the token goes to resolution and retroactively re-camo after they realise that they were out of range.

    In the same way that if you were to declare a engage or a hack with a ninja, it would be revealed regardless of the of validity of the skill (which is only checked at resolution when measuring)

    Every model in a coordinated order declares the same skill, but only performs it if they can, otherwise they perform an idle.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged
    "The Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert)."

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coordinated_Orders
    "All participating troopers must declare and execute the exact same sequence of Skills."

    "If one or more of the participants in the Coordinated Order is unable to complete any of the Short Skills of the Order, then they only complete those they can. However, for the purposes of ARO generation, these troopers count as having declared all Short Skills of the Order."
     
  14. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Correct, even if a participant is out of Range or has no LoF to the target they will still be revealed due to the fact they Declared BS Attack,even if the skill preformed ends up being Idle.
     
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