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Communal Druze

Discussion in 'Druze Bayram Security' started by oldGregg, May 1, 2018.

  1. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Edit: I’m not a fan of the Hunzakut Sniper EVER. Bring a second FO or LGL instead. (My 2 cents).
     
    McNamara likes this.
  2. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    If I use a defensive link I could swap the AHD to the Brawler since I wouldn't link the Doc in that case. And yeah I would be replacing the HMG with the MSR.

    Big disagree. That's not a new unit type to me. Vital profile for a 4-2 link build.
     
  3. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Honestly using the full Brawler style is probably best for a double SS2 defensive hacker build like this:
    [​IMG] Druze Bayram Security
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] BRAWLER Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    [​IMG] BRAWLER Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] BRAWLER Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] DRUZE Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Pitcher, D-Charges / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    [​IMG] DRUZE (CH: Mimetism) MULTI Sniper / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)

    2 SWC | 106 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Which I find pretty boring in a sectorial I'm mostly playing for the link. So I'd probably go for something like this actually.

    [​IMG] Druze Bayram Security
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] DRUZE HMG, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    [​IMG] DRUZE (X Visor) Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher (E/M and Nimbus) / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] DRUZE (X Visor) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    [​IMG] DRUZE (X Visor) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    [​IMG] BRAWLER Doctor (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] BASHI BAZOUK Submachine Gun, Chain-colt / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] BRAWLER Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] BRAWLER Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] HUNZAKUT Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)

    2.5 SWC | 209 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  4. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Try it and see if you like it. I've never been satisfied with the Hunzakut sniper. And Druze has the option of some crazy awesome snipers fighting for similar rolls. Or for 21 points, you can get your hands on a peacemaker. BS 11 on a sniper is very meh in my opinion.

    Edit:
    I have yet to be adversely impacted by the 4-2 problem. Even when waiting to go out and grab objectives until the last minute. Typically, I move-shoot. That means 4-shoot, 4-shoot. etc. If you'r trying to solve the 4-2 problem, the hunzakut is great ... as a FO who can cap objectives or shotgun enemies while laying mines and repeaters.
     
    #24 oldGregg, May 14, 2018
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
    loricus, KedzioR_vo and McNamara like this.
  5. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I use Hawwa plenty. Same BS. I prefer regular but it's ok.

    The "4-2" problem comes from a wise player counter deploying to maximize your movement. The right units can counter-counter that to punish them from the turtle style deployment and that is what I'm trying to figure out with Druze. I use a lot of 4-2 links and my opponents have had time to develop tactics against them.
     
  6. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    How are you being counter-deployed?

    I ask because I have never felt the need to chase down enemies with my link. That's what I use my TAG/Peacemaker + Saito for.

    My core link either holds a strong position, waiting until the last moment to jet out, or more effectively, is constantly on the move (generally to the table center). I find the terrain and enemy opposition best suited for a good ol' Druze bashing and overwhelm with superior firepower. Even at less than ideal range, its an unlucky day when the odds aren't in your favor.

    For tricky to reach objectives and annoying enemy positions, I set up a hammer and anvil with Scarface or sneak around with Saito and pathfinders.
     
  7. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I don't know what I came off as saying I just mean there are situations where Druze are not ideal are where you want to fill the rest of the list. This is where 4-2 comes up because if you can't manage it without the Druze you could waste as many as 2 or 3 orders forcing them in a SK shaped hole when something like KTS will have a bit extra to manage. 4-2 is like not having a DTW: it doesn't make a difference if everything goes to plan but a problem can come up where it bites you. Not letting that come up is a focus for the remainder of the list.

    It's also like needing to throw the same 3 smoke grenades every round if you didn't build your list to have a better solution when you need it.

    Basically:
     
  8. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    This:

    I'm just curious how this shows up in your games. I too would like to prepare for a defense against this.It hasn't ever been an issue for me. Check out the rest of this thread though; plenty of great stuff about a core team to build around before adding flavor.

    I like the Hunzakut FO to do that, along with REMs/Bashi. We just seem to have a difference of opinion on which Hunzakut, which is just fine.

    *Not sure what you mean by basically Saito and Scarface?
     
  9. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    @oldGregg basically using indirect defenses such as mines and using cheap AROs that require positioning to kill but aren't rewarding can really give them the run around.

    There's a tactic that involves getting your casualties to be less important than the units used to deal with them and efficiently counter attacking from your DZ now that they exposed themselves by attacking.
    If you deliver a Core to their footsteps you play in to their hands.

    The counter tactic I've found is to take advantage of a usually more open board one you get past the center line and poking them with dedicated troops such as a (using units I am familiar with) Bandit or Tomcat, hitting valuable forces without depleting yours (who cares if a Irregular or AD isn't around next turn).

    Another tactic is to hit and return to safety but this requires surprise to get them out of total cover. A Infiltrating sniper can hit stuff that was supposed to be hidden, usually support like Doctors or Hackers, and return to almost absolute safety of where they deployed.

    Basically this punishes the behavior by giving you choice of what you can kill then choosing your own casualties.

    This isn't really a unique situation for MI Core to not be useful, but like I said it's one situation where 4-2 would come in effect.
     
  10. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    So these scenarios are precisely why I love the Druze and believe the flexible core team is so strong. Your opponent can waste orders trying to reach out and strike. They'll likely even kill some of your strong pieces! (Almost guaranteed).

    But you just spend a command token to fill your link back up to effective numbers, kamikaze a Fugazi or Bashi Holo to deal with mines and other speed bumps, and then pour orders into your rambo (Druze team or Scarface or Peacemaker, or sometimes Saito).

    Even when an opponent has a really strong turn and you feel hamstrung, Druze have the resiliency and flexibility to stand back up and out-muscle just about everything. (This includes facing down fire-power like the Dragao). Need to pick two directions? Split the team into a core and duo to go get her done.

    For eliminating key units in hiding or far to the backfield, Bashi, Saito, Hunzakut, and Peacemaker all do a better job than the Hunzakut sniper because they can play multiple roles (like being specialists, joining a fire-team, or bringing large (multiple) templates.

    Real talk though, if you can do the same thing with a FO Hunzakut with more burst and more tools, why wouldn't you? If its because you want the long sniper range band further up the field, I think that is entirely dependent on a randomly skewed table with llots of horizontal fire lanes. And if you play on these frequently, I would most definitely invest in Le Muet instead of a Hunzakut.

    The H. Sniper certainly lets you sneak a couple shots of opportunity, but doesn't (for me) bring consistent value. I think a major strength of Druze is their ability to take heavy hits and keep murdering with all sorts of tools straight from the core team.

    @loricus I want you to know I respect your opinion and am really just trying to hash out all the possibilities with a critical eye. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
     
  11. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    @oldGregg I appreciate your brute force style but I don't share it. I want every shot to have asymetric cover, hitting them in the back, in their bad range band, or some mix of that. I also want to hit the guys they don't want me to hit which means not smashing through defences but flowing around.

    Other SK need to enter rifle range leaving themselves exposed and can have trouble keeping out of the large DTW. Armand pays out the nose for combat abilities like ODD and an extra wound (MSV1 does allow me to hit PH for dodges) that are mostly inconsequential while losing full infiltration, token state, and a low price/SWC that are important.

    I don't need an ace to shoot helpless specialists, remotes and WB then keep a presence that required constant coverage of an entire flank. I just need them to be in the right place and immune to spec fire.
     
  12. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Just to be clear, I don’t mean to imply that brute force means playing irrationally. The variety of weapons in your core team and specialists allows you to apply the right lever at the right time.

    I don’t think anyone would choose to rely only on being an active piece. Playing Infinity means playing the odds and stacking them in your favor. I don’t know if a bs 11 sniper ever does that actively.

    What I’m saying is that it is a very situational piece.

    Your scenarios haven’t convinced me of any situation my rifle/shotgun/repeater wouldn’t be better to use. Camo pieces don’t get ignored in my games. You’re the only person I’ve ever heard from that has made the Hunzakut Sniper work for you. I’m glad you did. I just don’t think it’s as universal as you make it out to be.

    This whole thread is about universal applications of Druze, which is why I argue. Im not arguing that you’ve made it work for you in your meta on your local tables.
     
  13. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    That's because Hunzakut haven't had a sectorial yet.

    I'm sure I could prove it in a game but I don't think I could even get you to understand what I'm trying to do with it if you think a rifle can be analogous. I think we're better off agreeing to disagree it's not important.
     
  14. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    If you think you could prove it in a game, why not try with math? The infinity dice calculator works great. And to be clear, again, it’s not JUST the rifle. It’s the rifle + light shotgun + AP mines + repeater + FO. It doesn’t really compare.

    *edit: also what? Why does it matter if Hunzakut have their own sectorial? Im arguing the sniper profile is only situationally acceptable. You can make it work for you in your meta. Great. It just isn’t universally awesome like the other profiles.
     
    #34 oldGregg, May 15, 2018
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  15. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Numbers are a trap they don't account for the majority of the game. A Hellcat Combi matches damage and BS with a PanO TAG if AD means you flank.

    Hunzakuts - Sniper Rifle vs. Machinist - Dodge
    Active Player
    67.53% Hunzakuts inflicts 2 or more wounds on Machinist (Dead)

    Failures
    22.32% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    10.15% Machinist Dodges Hunzakuts

    Simultaneous Normal Rolls
    Hunzakuts - Rifle vs. Auxbot (Auxilia) - Heavy Flamethrower
    Active Player
    85.32% Hunzakuts inflicts 1 or more wounds on Auxbot (Auxilia) (Unconscious)
    45.88% Hunzakuts inflicts 2 or more wounds on Auxbot (Auxilia) (Dead)

    Failures
    14.68% No success
    Reactive Player
    70.00% Auxbot (Auxilia) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Hunzakuts (Unconscious)
    49.00% Auxbot (Auxilia) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Hunzakuts (Dead)

    Failures
    30.00% No success
     
  16. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Um ... numbers aren’t a trap. Math is the basis on which we learn everything. Also, to have an objective argument, you need to use the same scenario with a control and variable. Obviously this is no longer a rational debate. And we veered from the thread’s topic long ago.

    Thanks for that.

    Have fun with your Hunzakut Sniper.
     
  17. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    @oldGregg it had a point if you wanted to understand me that's why I prefaced it. I'm not in argument mode. No one needed to be upset.

    I did my best at answering an advanced, out of topic question that I tried to avoid but was insisted upon me. I'm not taking any blame for that.
     
  18. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Rifle vs auxilia dodge as per your example:
    Active Player
    69.54% Hunzakuts inflicts 1 or more wounds on Auxilia (Unconscious)
    30.02% Hunzakuts inflicts 2 or more wounds on Auxilia (Dead)

    Failures
    19.43% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    11.04% Auxilia Dodges Hunzakuts

    vs Auxbot (simultaneous normal rolls)
    Active Player
    85.32% Hunzakuts inflicts 1 or more wounds on Auxbot (Auxilia) (Unconscious)
    45.88% Hunzakuts inflicts 2 or more wounds on Auxbot (Auxilia) (Dead)

    Failures
    14.68% No success
    Reactive Player
    91.00% Auxbot (Auxilia) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Hunzakuts (Unconscious)
    78.40% Auxbot (Auxilia) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Hunzakuts (Dead)

    Failures
    9.00% No success

    But for both your example and mine, a direct template doesn't come into play sooo ...
    = better

    *I couldn't and still don't understand your argument. That's the point.
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I think his point is that an infiltrated sniper, especially deployed second or as a reserve, provides tactical opportunities and angles of attack that a DZ based sniper or infiltrated Rifle+LSG doesn't.

    The first has to spend orders move up the board and potentially have more and/or stronger AROs to maybe get to the same position, and the latter has to get within dangerous ranges to be effective.

    A Hunzakut sniper deployed on the extreme flank in the middle of the board can get LoF to support units, angles that deny cover, or bypass heavily guarded fire lanes, and a BS11 sniper rifle at 16"+ is effectively a BS14, DAM18 sniper if you're able to flank around cover.

    As they're also dirt cheap and don't provide an order I'd even be tempted to roll for infiltration into the enemy half if I could get a back shot on a Moran, Peacemaker, or similar, and the longer ranged weapon keeps you out of Koala, HFT, or Shotgun range.
     
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  20. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I've never tried it except with the Proxy MK2 MSR who we don't talk about.

    If the board is set up for it I would absolutely try it because worst case scenario you still get a basic ARO guy and there could be a big payoff.

    But obviously you wouldn't do it for no reason and it hasn't come up yet. Hawwa lose a PH and cost more, plus as regular troops they don't mind sitting on a roof and being threatening even if they don't get a chance. So I'm even less likely to do it on Qapu.