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Command and control faction

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This might be unpopular with non-Yu Jingers, but...

    Haqq is the biological masters and have not only all their Doctors be Doctor Plus, something shared with only a rare few units outside their faction, but they have exclusive access to Akbar Doctor. For free!

    Nomads are the hacking masters among humans and have the highest presence of Hacking Device Plus. Combined Army are the defacto technological masters of this setting and not only have a high amount of Hacking Device Plus, but all their Hacking Devices are loaded with extra potent programs from the Evolved Intelligence. For free!

    Tactical Awareness has now been spread liberally across multiple factions and the super-heavy S5 infantry is also starting to propagate to the point where heavy infantry master faction is even less meaningful than Pan-O's TAG master faction, diluting the faction identity.
    In a similar manner to how ISS is supposed to be the sectorial with most visors and sensors, they stop short of actually pulling it off by limiting it to select units and never combining them. Instead of having a saturation of visors, sensors and sniffers, ISS and Yu Jing lands much closer to the amount of sniffer-sensors that can only be described as "sane and reasonable", and honestly I think most vanilla should have access to a healthy AVA of minelayer sniffers if they so choose to add them to the list, not just Yu Jing at AVA 1!

    So on to my point.

    Make Yu Jing the true Command and Control faction.
    Make, like Haqq's doctors or Nomad's hackers, most of Yu Jing's LTs have the level 2 version of that skill.

    (Note/disclaimer: this isn't a demand, it's a starting point for entertaining debate)
     
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    We they are certainly not the CC faction anymore, not sure if they really were. But I can agree with you. But somehow I know that we will be seeing other forces with Lt. 2, NCO, AT, Advanced Command, etc. Yu Jing can't have pretty things.
     
  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Back in N2 (and I think pre-HSN3), YJ with JSA was the CC faction. We could put far more HI into the field, and more of them had serious CC capabilities, than even MO.

    But now, yeah, vanilla PanO can put more HI with CC into the field than YJ can...

    I would really like for Yu Jing to get more LT2, Strategos, TacWare (and for Dashat to lose all those TacWare profiles!!!!), etc
     
  4. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing General Political Department

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    My first wish would of course be to see our HI-faction role fixed by giving us ever more interesting HI options to balance out the increasing prevalence in other factions, but at some point you really do run into a limit. And I think the CC ship seceded alongside JSA, those were our best close combat units, the mantle of 'CC faction' was borne mostly on their shoulders, and I wont begrudge them keeping. The idea of making us the 'command and control' faction thus has a lot of appeal.

    It also has a lot of backing in the setting... Yu Jing is not a 'command economy' in the Soviet mold, but you definitely get the impression of a top-down structure, subject-citizens putting the demands of the community ahead of the self, the Party stepping in to direct events for advantage of the state. That being the case, and given the StateEmpire is seeking to be the most advanced technologically and politically within the Sphere, it makes perfect sense that they would devote training and tech to making the leaders issuing commands into the best they could be, resulting in Lieutenant L2 (and, arguably Strategos).
     
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  5. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    I think TacAware is a good mechanic. Instead of removing it from other units and factions, I'd like to see more NCO/Lt2/Strategos stuff if Yu Jing should be the Command and Control faction.
     
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  6. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    This is a swirl I can get down with.
     
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  7. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    The thread matches with my opinion about YJ. We are no good at CC, rather paying it thanks to our shadows of pre-uprising.

    Our troopers are quite mundane as a Hyperpower, but since CB try to describe YJ as an unison of tradition anf tech I can take the concept of Command and Control - Emperor and his soldiers are commanding presence afterall.

    So far we got whole 'C&C' Skills;

    • Strategos : Sun Tze, very likely to describe his master-tactician skills.
    • Lt L2 : Daoying. Best tactical brains educated right beneath Sun Tze, no wonder they got the skills. They are prominent commanders.
    • NCO : Mowang, Tai. Right guy for the real work, loyal and have keen senses to make his superior proud. I would like to see these around - even a Zhanshi can make a use out of it.
    • Tac. Awareness : Zuyongs, Shang Jis. This could be the very direct orders from the high command (as described on 3rd offensive), encouraging individual soldiers to act as a key piece for higher goals. Or they are really keen on their movement and situation - whether it is, they are often able to reach out into others cant. The mechanic threats order maths, tbh, but it is cool in gaming and fluffy sides. TA Invincibles are considered as crucial pieces for IA - No wonder why it is annoying that Dashat took this along with their assorted goodies from YJ :P
    • Chain of Command : Pheasants, Haidaos, Tai. This might describe the natural leader, the guy with Charisma, or just high high Authority. YJ was one of few factions with this skills before, although very mocked, but this mean even the leader's down soldiers can count on 'the guy' to grab a comlog and gets shit done. It does mean something, or YJ got their info line real well throughout the military corps.
    • Executive Order : Hac Taos. More like boasting your shiney TO CAMO armor and sinisterly saying 'I'm in charge now.' I don't get the fluffy mechanism TBH, but my experiences from army around 2 years and military reservoir could suggest a Colonel landing into your daily camp noun. He'll be in command ASAP.
    • Combat Lts : I personally think this is crucial. Even before landing of IA YJ tend to field some really aggressive Lts like Hsien. Now its even better with IA. Talk about true leader!
    YJ got all of these C&C themed skills, hence we could call our faction Command and Control Faction.

    There will be some rooms for development, though - IS, for example, is formed upon high authority and collectiveness. Since they are also considered commanders on action, High ranked agents of IS (Hsien, Crane, Pheasant) could use some benefits of Authority.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Essentially what I'd like to see is for Zhanshi, Guilang, Daofei, Sun Tzes and Tiger LT to remain as 0 SWC or neg SWC LT1. Everyone else goes to LT2. Daoying to LT3 (if it is even at all necessary given how good LT2 and Camo is).
    Haidao CoC to be available in vanilla and Pheasant to have CoC2 (which could be as basic as an LT2 version of CoC)
    And then NCO in more places. Not necessarily more units, but more profiles. Also, just floating the idea of TacAware on Bao
     
    #8 Mahtamori, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  9. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of which, I find it funny that they are still more limited with their own order than NCOs are, what's with inability to activate links.
     
  10. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Dear CB please let Zuyong Lt or Hsien Lt can use his LT orders in a team!!
     
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  11. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    I'd say the "command and control"* theme could easily be interpreted as "order generation manipulation": other factions may have the same mechanics (Lt L2 and NCO, tac aw, cheap-ass orders...), but we're the best at abusing them and it's the reason why yu-jing is probably the most agressive faction in the game ATM.

    * Was this confirmed officially anywhere, or are we just extrapolating from what we have since we lost our "cc faction" identity?
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't know, but there is a clear pattern where Yu Jing units are often referred to as being of the command/leadership variety, see in particular our hero in Defiance who's got two defining features: armour and leadership skills.
    Sure, but there's a distinct lack of Doctor Plus in 8 out of 9 main factions and a huge over-abundance of Doctor Plus and HD+ in factions who have them by comparison to the relative light presence of LT2, NCO and TacAware in Yu Jing (or for that matter the relative lack of MSV2, Sensor and X-visor in ISS). More than most, but not in any way abundant.
     
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  13. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Note that doctor plus and HD+ were in the game for much longer than Tac Aw/LT2 and NCO, and originate from another design era. CB seems keen to share it's new ideas amongst factions these days (remember the surge of units with FD2 or SMG), it wasn't the case back then. For what it's worth, I prefer toys to be more widely available but makes some factions better at using them than making them exclusive.

    As for ISS, it's not that it lacks sensor/MSV, it's just that the sectorial isn't that good at leveraging them.
     
  14. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Would you mind elaborating?

    Hsien HMG in a Haris + CG LSGL in a Core is super reliable and devastating, don't you think? Especially considering the amount of orders ISS can pump out.

    As for Sensor, ISS has 3 options that cover all price ranges as well as 3 profiles with sniffer (even a FD Minelayer one).
    Cranes auto succeed Sensor and are prime candidates for Triangulated Fire.

    With the added option of Nimbus support for iffy ARO pieces, i'd say ISS does these things pretty well if not best.
     
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  15. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    @Knauf Basically, there's a bunch of akward synergies, profiles and list building restrictions which makes it hard to use those tools very effectively (especially the sensors):

    - MSV: We can have very accurate smoke but it locks our fireteam core choices into either kuang-shi or CG core. If you want to go with the wu-ming paintrain you're stuck with your 1 shot at 14 to drop smoke for your rui-shi, and you need to spend orders to drop them (unlike some factions with impetuous smokes). But yeah ISS is actually quite good at shooting stuff with MSV.

    - Sensors: This is where it gets a bit ugly. We can have sensors in most of our fireteams thanks to zhanying and cranes, which is nice, but it's far from being the best way to use sensors. It's kind of the same issue we have in IA when dealing with hacking. Sure, the haidao KHD in fireteam with a Tinbot is scary as hell and can handle any hacker, but without the tools to spread his hacking range he's really bad at supporting the list outside of his fireteam.
    ATM the best sensor unit in the game is the antipode assault pack, they can basically sensor sweep most of the board in 2 orders, 3 tops depending on terrain and placement, and there isn't much you can do to stop it from happening. Most other faction will use 2 (or more) sniffer bots and coordinate them with a sensor bot to move them altogether, drop sniffers and then sensor sweep. But ISS has only 1 sniffer bots, and the kanren minelayer is a very niche profile on an already akward skirmisher.
    To effectively use it's sensors ISS needs better ways to spread sniffers around. For starter I'd probably merge the forward obs and minelayer kanren, and I'd add some kind of sniffer-launcher to ISS's toolbox (maybe on the pheasant?). Hell, I think making Kuang-shi's biolocator acts as sniffer instead of repeater when activated would be super neat.
     
    #15 Sedral, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Well, YJ is the only faction with Strategos, Advanced Command, LT2, XO, Chain of Command, Tactical Awareness, and NCO.

    Other factions may have a couple of those, but only YJ has the entire set of leadership/order manipulation skills.
     
  17. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Except for Counterintelligence, if that counts ... *cough* Pheasant *cough*
     
    #17 Knauf, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Could be argued either way, but I think it'd be good for more units in more factions to have Counterintelligence, too. And yes, that'd be good for a Pheasant to have.
     
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  19. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Yup, I made that suggestion in the Yu Jing N4 thread.

    I love the idea of Yu Jing a C&C army. Someone has also mentioned adding Engineering Plus to the faction. I think that would add some flavor too.

    We need more NCO options the most imo. Like a Shang Ji NCO and Guija.
     
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  20. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I REALLY want an engineering minus. Something like: (New thing):Engineer::Paramedic:Doctor. Something that can do engineering classifieds, D-Charges and repair stuff, but without the Rem Pres re-roll. Put it on some of the existing profiles, like the "elite" MI and such.
     
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