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Combined Army in N4

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Well, given that SEF took that long to get a full update, should expect a big update for MAF, really... I'd say it's more likely and I guess at least generous that maybe one or two more wildcards are given to MAF. I really hope Kurgat become wild card and get a CC bump like how they are portayed and the same CC bump for Rakotorak, giving either Kornak or Anyat wildcard as well would be great, either implementing a CC guy or a smoke thrower into yaogat's would be great and not even close to breaking anything. BTS is supposed to become incremental like ARM as well so maybe we'll see a little bit more of that passed around.

    Still would like Zerat to pick up new kit or skills, and CC skills added to Oznat, something cheap at no cost is fair.

    I'll always wish Morats were 100% elite like ASS if I'm being honest though.
     
  2. alchahest

    alchahest Well-Known Member

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    I saw a lot of frenzy / get closer type stuff for MAF over the last page, but Morats aren't berserking maniacs (except Kornak and to a lesser extent the Daturazi). They're consumate soldiers, the Morat rule reflects that they stand and shoot, and stand and shoot and stand and shoot, they don't rush in like they're Teutons. I think it'd better reflect them to get full auto 1 if they do not use a short order to move. across the board. obviously that's too powerful, but I think it better fits the fiction of being the most disciplined soldiers in the the whole CA. Why not lean into how terrifyingly effective being tough and discplined can be rather than "hey they have sharp teeth they're obviously just monkey military orders"
     
  3. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    First of all, I think any rules that go along "You get X if you do Y first" are not a good thing to suggest or even considering. Infinity has very few examples like that, and most of them are basically manipulations of the games states (NWI being "You get to keep moving and generating orders while unconscious" and Protheion being "Any wounds you cause during CC become ablative wounds for your model", etc)

    I have suggested that MAF should be rewarded for getting closer, not necessarily Frenzy. MAF is an Assault force, that does mean Close Quarters battle. Look at the following models:

    Raicho: The Raicho is the Most Morat of all Morats we have so far. Why? It's a big, stompy robot with a big gun that can't be isolated and won't flinch if shot at. It's pretty unrelenting as far as big stompy robots, but most big stompy robots DO NOT want to advance up the table. Even for a Jotum or Avatar it is usually a bad idea to move past the controller's half of the table. With the Raicho? Boy, the Raicho only gets better the closer it gets. That's Agression. That's "switching from long range combat to short range combat at the drop of a hat" aggression. It is cool, it's useful, and with the crits changes it's only going to get better. That's a very Morat model, and it doesn't need frenzy or any fancy new rule to be it.

    The Red Fury Zerat is another good example of a Morat that feels Morat: She's cheap enough that she is expendable, but thanks to her fairly unique kit (Big gun, mines, infiltration), she can be both a scalpel piece to remove key enemy models, and a defensive one by laying mines then dropping into suppressive. She's versatile, she's efficient, and if you have to you can throw her away because she doesn't really matter in the long run. Very soldier like, very aggressive leaning, and still no frenzy.

    Now imagine if they changed Yaogats to the following: PH13, Grenades on everyone, shotgun models get sensor instead of MSV, they're all FD2 now and the stupidly expensive hacker specialist goes away and becomes an FO with Combi/Panzerfaust or Paramedic with Shotty. Sniper model goes away and becomes a MULTI-Marksman (you can even give him an 1 SWC cost so the model is not a no brainer). Now yaogats are really good camo hunters who want to be in the midfiled, but won't dominate it so you still need the fireteam and support models. Also, if you remove MSV from everyone except the big gun models (but give them other camo-hunting tools such as Sensor and/or flamethrowers), they may become cheaper, thus allowing for a full fireteam to become an option, instead of just the Haris.

    You see? these are examples, CB doesn't have to follow these ideas. Hell, everyone wanted Full Auto on the Raicho but nobody complained of what they decided to do instead. Close Range combat is not the same as "Raving maniac with a sword"
     
    #203 DaRedOne, May 19, 2020
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
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  4. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    That is actually a really good verbal assessment of the Raicho.

    I'll dodge my own opinion and ask, at risk I'm aware, what does everyone feel fluff wise a revision should be to better support what they think Morats should be on the table. Because we've read a lot about them being professional soldiers. We've read a fair bit about them being hunters. And if I skipped over every other unit and just focused on one, it's fluff kind of indicates a melee or durability focus the Morat race as a whole; The Raktorak fluff explicitly states smashing face is the requirement in order to make NCO rank, and the whole of Morat society is built around the military, if that's true, then a fair number of all Morat should be actually pretty good at hand to hand combat or sufficiently tough (higher ARM, Dogged or NWI), take your pick I guess. But Morat fluff alone makes the whole of the race fairly elite. I'm okay with this or that happening, I just know I'd end up leaning toward another faction afterwards and I would understand if someone else did too. The idea is suspension of disbelief to some degree afterall...
     
  5. Melkhior

    Melkhior Doing filthy things for EI

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    Gutier aswers some question about Infinity via Facebook and there is question about Morats. Hard to tell if answer has some secret meaning, but I am posting it here. Take it with pinch of salt.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
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    eeeh, guess based on how this worded we can rule out any CC addition to whole faction
    [​IMG]
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Good? Morats already struggle with a costly, mandatory rule. Adding CC bloat is not a way to fix them.
     
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  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I think that the fastest way to make Morats - including their special rule - more viable, would be to upgrade their Lieutenants. Make them strong, useful pieces that act as a force multiplier (through Strategos L1-3, Advanced Command, Lieutenant L2, Strategic Deployment, even Inspiring Leadership), while leading from the front without fearing LoL. Additionally throw more NCOs (all Raktoraks, for example) and Number 2's to the mix. And suddenly you have more flexibility, the army fits their fluff of being the professional soldiers, and you can easily control vanilla balance by making certain choices unique to MAF.

    For example something like this:
    • Vanguard Lt: Lt2
    • Rodok Lt: Strategos L2
    • Yaogat Lt: Advanced Command
    • Kornak Lt: Lt2, Inspiring Leadership
    • Suryat Lt: Lt2, Strategic Deployment
    • Sogarat Lt: Choice between Strategos L2 or Advanced Command
    • Daturazi Lt: Inspiring Leadership
     
    #208 Stiopa, May 20, 2020
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  9. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    100% on this one. I hate it that there are some rather arbitrary decisions in the design process that seem to hamstring CA so much (The fact every base Infantry MUST cost 14 points is a good example. Is a vanguard really worth 14 points? I think Nox are, and a case can be made for Unidrons, but vanguard are so very lackluster for their points).

    If anything, I would like these restrictions to either be gone in N4 or at least be reworked into something useful. If we HAVE to have all our base infantry cost 14, at least make it so Vanguards have interesting abilities to compensate.
     
  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'm very torn about Morats. I enjoy them. I think they are decent, though not top tier. The sectorial passover was good, if not quite enough. And the Morat rule, for all it's bloatiness, is exactly what I expect "professional soldiers" to be all about: leadership down? They still carry on. Isolation? My gun is the only comrade I need.

    That said, the rule is somewhat wasted where there are so few good aggressive lt options (and one of them doesn't even benefit from having NCOs around!). I like @Stiopa's idea about adding more leadership skills to the faction, and that's certainly one direction they could go to give them skills that revolve around their fluff. LTL2, in particular, on an aggressive lt is something I would like to see.
     
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  11. alchahest

    alchahest Well-Known Member

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    perhaps to further their designation as elite soldiers, put Number 2 in to the Morat rule. (or whatever exists of it in N4). make it so that MAF fireteams (core, haris, or duo) aren't as easy to break as others.
     
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  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Before HSN3 I was really hoping that the Morat rule would get extended to include No 2. It's very thematic with their existing LoL mitigation and would make fireteams in the sectorial feel and play differently than other armies.
     
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  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    If CB's insistence of doing away with composite skills will continue, Morat skill might do something entirely different in N4, anyway.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It'd be stupid to make Morats a more cc-oriented faction; they're not a sci-fi equivalent of fantasy orcs. You'd be thinking of CHA.

    Zerats could really use Climbing Plus, it would allow them to deploy protected without needing Camouflage. The faction as a whole *does* have some strong AROs - Q-Drones and Yaos with MSRs or Panzerfausts can be pretty scary.
     
    #214 Hecaton, May 20, 2020
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
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  15. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I think the reason people conflate Morat with CC is because the most common morat units are all good at CC:
    - Krakots are avaliable to everyone, as is Kendrat now. Both of them are pretty good at CCing stuff at the cost of their own lives;
    - Daturazi are a CA staple, either in combination with Charontids for a stupidly strong Smoke Trick (does anyone else get to combo a BS14 HMG with smoke? I think maybe O-12 can, not sure), or just because smoke is pretty good and Daturazi hit pretty hard in CC.

    This skews the perception of players towards the idea that Morats are all CC beasts, and if you combine that with the lore painting them as basically dumber Klingons and you can see where it all ends.

    And I also think that it shows a problem with the core design of Morats. Shasvastii at their core are "sneaky, tricksy bastards", and look at the options we have for being sneaky and tricksy with them! Pretty much every Shas unit has a place both in their sectorial and in Vanilla, and in some cases you really feel like running the sectorial just for the increased AVA (Extra calibans and seed soldiers? Yes please!).

    Meanwhile, most Morat units are only taken within their own sectorial, and sometimes just because they're crutches to other stuff. I don't want to repeat myself, so I will go to another route: look at how most shas units work very well on their own, but are enhanced on their sectorial. Thats some good design. Most MAF units only work marginally well within their sectorial, which means players won't touch them on their own. That's kinda sad, really.
     
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  16. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I actually think the problem starts with the Morat fluff. If we reduce them to "professional soldiers" they overlap alot with other factions. The rules options are also limited (I do like the number 2 idea though). With all the stuff Morats give up (like camo) i don't think that is enough. I wouldn't mind if the Morats got an itchy trigger finger or something. Anything that adds some more options over the "we are good even without leadership."
     
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  17. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    The main question is what Morats are supposed to bring to CA as a whole. Shas cover sneakiness. Morats could bring in more resilience, which their PH already hints at (yes, Suryats should get PH boost), and makes increased ARM values (again, more important stat in N4) believable. ARM 4 MI, ARM 5 Suryats, Sogarats already sport ARM 6. More Dogged seems like a Morat thing as well. Building upon that higher PH in other ways, for example more grenades of various types, even starting at Vanguard level. Hell, Vanguards could be reworked into proper MI with ARM 3.

    I think that the issue @DaRedOne mentioned - the difference between value of Morat and Shasvastii units outside their sectorials - might be so because Shas look to be designed to work well solo, while Morats depend on each other more. Even their respective racial rules reflect this; Shasvastii is valuable even if you have a single Shasvastii in your army, while Morat allows your list to function through LoL, but only if you have more Morats than just one. And I don't know if this is something that can be changed without significant reworking of the Morat rule.
     
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  18. Melkhior

    Melkhior Doing filthy things for EI

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    I am not sure if higher ARM is good solution, because (unless CB changed prize of ARM in the N4) it will make Morat units even more expensive. Same can be said about Vanguards as MI, because it would made them cost around 16 points and I don't think we need Morat units even more expensive.

    The most of the Morat units brings more then one weapon on their loadouts. Maybe CB should go this way and give Morats more exotic secondary weapons on their profiles like more granades, DTWs panzerfausts, flammenspears, blitzen etc. But again this would make Morat units even more expensive.

    IMHO MAF as their name says should be aggressive and their opponent should fear Morats in active turn and it should hurt the opponent. The question is how to make them feel like this. Maybe skills like Marksmenship would be helpful in making morat units more dangerous?
     
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  19. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    @Melkhior I do agree on the pricing issue. We just don't know yet what various things will cost in N4.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good way to mechanically improve Morat (except for Inspiring Leadership - that's always going to be iffy territory for any faction with AVA 2+ on cheap irregulars), but Morats already share a lot in common with what are defining characteristics of Yu Jing - small CC increase that mostly just increase cost, a propensity for command and control, weirdly low-tech choice of gear for a high-tech army, combined arms as a necessity rather than optional tactic, and so on. There's even a few units that are creepy-pasta similar to each other, like they're the angry Yu Jing twin. Just... how about something that makes them play less like a Yu Jing army with Hannya masks on? (That's a horned (sometimes) red demon mask from Noh theatre, for reference)

    Number 2 as part of the Morats rule would possibly expand on the concept of how the Morat army keeps ticking regardless of casualties. I mean, the Morat rule is already somewhat expensive and the No2 skill is fairly cheap, it should fit in there.
     
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