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Code One: when do you remove a Mine that triggers?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by inane.imp, Apr 28, 2020.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Mines state that they're removed, to paraphrase slightly, "once they're triggered". "Once" has a sense of immediacy, indicating that they are removed at the same step of the order that they trigger. IE. if a Trooper moves into the Trigger area of a Mine at Step 1.2 then it would be removed at Step 1.2.

    However, Step 5.2 Effects states "Players apply all effects of successful Skills, Special Skills, and pieces of Equipment, and make Saving Rolls, any Dodge movement or Alert." Since removing the Mine is an effect of the Mine it is plausibly removed at this step.

    When is a triggered Mine removed?
    A. During the step in which it is triggered
    B. During Step 5.2 Effects
     
    #1 inane.imp, Apr 28, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Very much this question. It's a problem in N3 for no good reason and it would be nice if it stopped being a problem with C1/N4
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yup, it literally just needs the words "during the same step" or "during Step 5.2 Effects" added to the effect stating it is removed once triggered.

    I'm quietly hoping that N4 is still in final proofing so that any issues we identify in Code One can be fixed at release.
     
  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Why/ in what way is it a problem?
     
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Enemy Markers block Movement still (unless I've missed something), and enemy Tokens I think do as well (or at least prevent an enemy occupying the same space as them). (I need to check again)

    So imagine a situation with a Trooper with a Marker covering a Mine token immediately in front of it.

    If the mine is removed during the step its triggered in and it's triggered at Step 1.2 then it's possible to Move over the space occupied by the enemy Marker/Token at Step 3.

    If it's not removed until Step 5.2 then it blocks Movement for that whole order.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    ...and if it is removed as soon as it triggers, there are situations where an enemy soldier can move into the mine's space, cause the mine to un-trigger due to friendly miniature rule, and then the mine needs to get un-triggered into the enemy soldier.

    ...while if it is not removed immediately on trigger, the word choice is mighty unfortunate.
     
  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    The marker will be there when the movement is committed and the model will not be able to move over it, I guess the model could theoretically move to engage with a second short skill or dodge, is that the question?
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Order 1.
    Alice Moves towards Bob.
    Bob places a mine between Alice and Bob.
    Alice shoots Bob.
    Bob takes one wound and falls unconscious.

    Order 2.
    Alice Moves towards Bob again.
    Mine blows up, Bob can't ARO.
    Alice wants to Move into BTB with Bob but the mine is in the way?
    Rules seem to indicate that: The mine is removed immediately when triggered, Alice Moves up to Bob and Enters BTB with Bob while still touching the Mine, the mine untriggers and Alice is standing in the spot where the mine should be.
     
  9. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Why should the mine "untrigger"? As long as there is a point where the template touch Alice and tot Bob (and being Bob unconscious, it's easy enough) there are A WORLD of valid positioning...
    edit: during the movement, of course
     
    toadchild likes this.
  10. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    This is just variant 5,594,493 of:
    • Move
    • Place template on trooper that moved
    • Move again, and apply the shooting into melee rules retroactively after the new movement
    The mechanic where if you move through a template you get hit by it exists for the sake of sanity, especially when dealing with the cases where you've got multiple moving models. And it works fine up until the point that someone claims that it allows the other player to change who got shot at by the attack.

    So which variant of "If that breaks the game, you probably shouldn't do that" would you like?
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I follow what you mean, no one is claiming it allows you to change who got shot, but are you saying that the N3 rule for the template existing in spot throughout the order and affecting anyone who touches it doesn't exist in C1? I have searched for a rule that would indicate that the rules work in that way and haven't found it*, so that would still leave the question of whether the mine is removed immediately or not - i.e. whether Alice is able to move over the mine's position in the same order it triggers.

    * Though All At Once is under-explained in C1, it would be nice if there was an example of a unit entering base contact with an enemy while also covered by a mine's template.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No, whether or not the model moves to engage with the second short skill or dodge is irrelevant. My question is still "do you remove it during the step it triggered or during Step 5.2 Effects".

    The former allows you to trigger a Mine and then move through the space it previously occupied in the same order.

    The later means that a Mine will block movement through its position for at least a whole order. So you can only move through the space it occupied during subsequent orders.

    I deliberately didn't discuss the situation where Alice engaged Bob (how that's resolved is really a separate situation, because you can recreate irrespective of when the Mine is removed*). However, even leaving that aside it's relatively easy to conceive of a situation relevant to gameplay where being able to block a 25mm wide path for 1 Short Movement Skill more or less.

    * Well, except the game-breaking case enabled by FAQ 1.5, but just don't do that.
     
    #12 inane.imp, Apr 28, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I see - this is the easiest with a model with a base larger than the mine’s. That way you can fully occupy the mine’s former volume while clearly overlapping the template and also potentially touching additional models that were previously inaccessible because they were on the other side of the mine’s marker.
     
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