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Climb+ / prone / ladder / guts roll

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Sangarn, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    Okay I feel I've already read hundred pages about this but no one agree on anything so I'm asking here:

    First stop:
    1: can a trooper be prone on a ladder ?
    2: can a trooper <with climb+> be prone on a wall ?
    3: can a trooper <with climb+> be deployed on a wall ?
    4: can a trooper be deployed on a ladder ?

    Second stop:
    5: can a trooper <who fail its guts roll> move 2 inch and go prone ?
    6: can a trooper <who fail its guts roll> move 2 inch and go on a ladder ?
    7: can a trooper <who fail its guts roll> move 2 inch and go prone on a ladder ?
    8: can a trooper with climb+ <who fail its guts roll> move 2 inch and go prone on a wall ?

    all the <who fail its guts roll> cases imply the 2 inch move improve the cover ofc
    thx for your time !
     
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  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Although it is written as an effect of the climb skill, I believe this:
    • Troops can never be in the Prone state while they Climb or hold on to a vertical surface.
    Is meant to be universally applied, and I don't think C+ is meant to override that aspect. I could be wrong, however.

    All the others are fine as long as they conform to their respective rules (guts movement only being away and to improve cover, deploying your troop so that the entirety of its silhouette is inside your DZ, etc.)
     
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  3. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Relevant rule snippets:

    Prone:
    While Prone, troopers cannot Jump or Climb.

    Ladder:
    Those pieces of scenery representing stairs and ladders allow to move vertical or diagonal surfaces using the Move Skill at no cost, without declaring Jump or Climb.

    Climbing Plus
    :
    This Special Skill alters the user's Climb Skill from an Entire Order Skill to a Short Movement Skill.
    Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground.

    Guts:
    If the troop fails its Guts Roll, it must go Prone or move up to 2 inches in order to abandon the danger zone, gain Cover, or improve its Cover against the attack.
    ______________________________________________________

    My thoughts:
    1. Yes, because you use ladders with the Move skill, not the Climb skill.
    2.a Yes, because Climbing Plus changes Climb to a Short Movement Skill.
    2.b No, because even if the Climb skill becomes a Short Movement Skill, it is still the Climb skill, which you cannot use while Prone.
    3. Yes, as long as all requirements for the Deployment are met. (I found no rule that forbids this.)
    4. (see 3.)

    Now we first have to clarify the kind of 'or' in the Guts rules:
    i) logical or: ...it must go Prone and/or move up to 2 inches...
    ii) exclusive or (xor): ...it must either go Prone or move up to 2 inches...
    To me i) makes the most sense.

    i.5. Yes, but the trooper has to go prone first, and then move 2 inches.
    ii.5. No, it is 'either go prone or move 2 inches'.
    6. Yes, see 1.
    i.7. Yes, see 1.
    ii.7. No, it is 'either go prone or move 2 inches'.
    i.8.a. Yes, see 2.a
    ii.8.a. No, it is 'either go prone or move 2 inches'.
    i.8.b. No, you cannot go prone when using the Climb skill.
    ii.8.b. No, either go prone or move 2 inches (onto a wall).
     
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  4. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I rarely use climbing plus so I'm not familiar enough with the rule to answer part 1

    My opinion on part two :

    Guts:
    If the troop fails its Guts Roll, it must go Prone or move up to 2 inches in order to abandon the danger zone, gain Cover, or improve its Cover against the attack.

    Guts use move with lowercase which usually mean the verb move and not the skill Move. If it mean the verb, then no going prone is allowed so it's going prone OR move 5cm to get better cover
     
  5. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    I tend to agree for the guts roll and prone part, but I'm not 100% sure, it should be clarified in a faq because 2 inch + prone can put you in total cover in a lot of situations that just 2 inch OR prone can't

    for the climb+ I do not agree, climb+ is not climb, it specify clearly: "Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground."
    what is the purpose of this sentence if not allowing all the move short skill options ? Climb already say that you can go in vertical surfaces

    also if you can prone on a ladder you should be able to prone with your ninja skill climb+ ^^
     
  6. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    "Troops can never be in the Prone state while they Climb or hold on to a vertical surface."

    The bold parts there, as pointed out by Sabin is definitive. Nothing in any other rule contradicts it.
     
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  7. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    climb =/= climb+ that the point
     
  8. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    But you are still on a vertical surface and nowhere in Climbing Plus does it state that you can go prone while on a vertical surface.

    Note the "or" in the quoted rules
     
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  9. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    nothing tells you you can't go prone when using climb+

    when you are on a ladder you are on a vertical surface and you can go prone, can't see why climb+ should be different than using a ladder

    climb+ says "Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground." pretty clear sentence except it says "normal movement" and not "short move skill"

    all the point of climb+ is turning the long skill climb into an upgrade to the short move skill

    anyway it's not a big deal either way, but this particular case shows up in one of my game (have to go prone on a wall because there was not enough room to place the silhouette of the mini not prone)

    the prone and 2 inch move for guts roll is more of an issue that would need better writing
     
  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That's just it. I think it's been ruled in the past that you can't be prone on a ladder because of that text. If that's the case, then that text extends beyond the climb skill to any vertical surface under any circumstance unless stated otherwise.
     
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  11. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Again,
    it is anoying that this is under the Climb rules, not the Prone rules,
    as it affects going prone on ladders, which is not Climb...

    Prone has the weaker ruling, that you cannot use the Climb or Jump skill,
    and does not mention vertical surfaces...
     
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  12. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    "rule in the past" by who ? quote for truth
    only @ijw have some kind of authority here
    all other ppl are just players
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    As it happens, it was by me, based on exactly the same logic that people have already been using in their replies.
    If you're holding onto a vertical surface, whether that's via Climb, Climbing Plus, a ladder or whatever, you can't be Prone.

    It would be better if it were in the General Movement Rules or the Prone state instead of being 'hidden' under Climb, but the text is not ambiguous.
     
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  14. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    @ijw : Whats your opinion on the second set of question regarding guts move ?
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's certainly how we used to play it.

    @ijw have there been any FAQs or other changes to that?