I'll post this question here as well as in the ITS subforum just in case, since this one seems to be more active. Question is: if the Predator card is placed in a Current Mission Objectives pool, do players count all of the enemy models that were killed by CC Attacks from the friendly troopers over the course of the game? (Example: during turn 1 player A had 2 enemy models killed with CC Attacks, and Player B had 3 enemy models killed with CC attacks, then at the start of Player A's turn 2 the Predator card is drawn into a Current Mission Objectives pool, would the players be able to score the points for the Predator card at the end of Player A's turn?) Bonus question: Is there anything preventing players from scoring Bonus Points from classified objectives in countermeasures? And now here's my rambling about all the classifieds that I had to write before I could actually come up with a more condensed questions, just for the context of my thought process and understanding of this rules question: I've got a few questions after playing some games of countermeasures, and just wanted to double-check how things work. 1) and 2) is just me describing how I think most classifieds work in this mission and I'm pretty sure I understand that correctly. with 3) and 3.5) I have some doubts, but not really, with 4) I'm not sure if I understood correctly and it'd be great if a native English speaker could explain what the timing of Predator classified objective is If I misunderstood how it works. 1) Out of 20 classifieds, 14+1* of the cards require to succeed at a Short Skill, so that seems to be pretty clear - the objective is accomplished as soon as an active player meets the requirements of a classified objective card that exists in a Current Mission Objectives pool at the moment of succeeding at that Short Skill. (*HVT:Designation does not require a Short Skill, but since there is no way to target an HVT with FO/Spotlight as an ARO this card is functionally the same as all the others in this category) 2) Then we have Telemetry, which requires "To succeed at an Attack against an enemy trooper using (FO/Spotlight)". This one can be accomplished by both players simultaneously, with a Reactive player using FO/Spotlight against an active model in a Fireteam/Coordinated Order that does not force a face to face roll while the reactive model is targeted with a FO/Spotlight form a Team Leader/a model in a coordinated order that is not the target of the reactive model's ARO. So far everything seems clear. 3) Now for the "At the end of the game" cads, of which there are four: Rescue, Capture, HVT:Kidnapping, Predator. In this mission for all 4 cards applies " "At the end of the game" can be accomplished at the end of any Player turn" " So we have 4 cards that check for completion of an objective at a specific point in time, and all of those seem to be possible to complete for both players at the same time. For Rescue and HVT:kidnapping, a trooper is required to be in a Casevac/CivEvac state at the moment in time in which the completion criteria for the classified objective is checked, and Capture works in much the same way, a trooper meeting the specific criteria needs to be in btb with an enemy trooper in a Null state. 3.5) As I understand - these 3 cards can be achieved sort of in advance, for example on a Player A's turn that player's trooper gets in a CivEvac state with an enemy HVT, just in case that at the end of the Player B's turn the HVT:Kidnapping card would be flipped into a current mission objective pool, and if it happens to be so, then at the end of player B's turn player A would be able to score that objective if the conditions are met at the end of player B's turn. 4)Now for the part when I start to actually ask questions instead of explaining my understanding of the rules: - "At the end of the game the player must have killed at least two enemy troopers in Close Combat." emphasis mine. As I understand it, "have killed" means "an action taken and completed in the past". Based on this it seems to me that In countermeasures, over the course of a game a player needs to keep track of how many enemy models are killed with friendly trooper's CC attacks, and at the end of any player's turn in which the Predator card was in a Current Mission Objectives pool both players check if over the course of the game they achieved the Predator objective, then one/both players are considered to have achieved this objective depending on if the players met the criteria.
Is this a question or the start of a discussion? Edit: Arguably, cards have to be active to count scoring. Answer: The cards just changes "At end of game" to "at end of any player turn". So you count whatever kills you've made thus far. Edit: So you count whatever kills you've made since the card got turned face up. Bonus answer: I don't see anything that would remove these bonus points. Better nab them before your opponent does. Edit 2: No, on reflection I do stand by my initial read. Keep it simple and stupid. This shouldn't change other classifieds.
Wait, I am trying to understand your response to this specific situation: Do you check if you have targeted a person previously throughout the game if you now draw the telemetry card or previously cc'd models throughout the game if you now draw predator. If you had accomplished those previously to the current turn and you draw those cards, the card is accomplished without spending a single order? And if both people did the task prior to the current turn the card would automatically be accomplished without spending a single order for a point for both?
Ah yes, good point. Edit: I have done a bit further reading on the objectives and what Erbent wrote and I have to say that Predator is one of few (if not the only one) that asks you to fill a quota up to a point. Telemetry for example tells you to complete the objective when you Spotlight/Forward Observe the target while Rescue requires you to fill the criteria at the end of the turn (in this mission)
But is there anything in the actual rules that supports this? English is not my first language, but I re-read through the classified deck a couple more times as far as I can see, all of the cards except Predator use simple present time for verbs describing an action required to complete the objective ("perform / succeed / detonate / be"), so in these cases the objective would be scored as soon as the conditions are met, and you obviously can't score the objective on the card that isn't in the current objectives, and all of the remaining 3 cards that score at the end of any player's turn require a trooper in certain position, so for those you can for example have your trooper in a casevac state at the end of turn 1, and if on the next player's turn Rescue is flipped and not discarded you'd be able to score that objective because at the moment of checking for objective completion you will have met the criteria to complete the objective. Now for the Predator card, it is the only card that uses present perfect time, which as far as I understand it indicates an action that started in the past and continues in the present - "the player must have killed at least two enemy troopers in Close combat", which to me indicates that at the moment of checking for the objective completion players have to count how many enemy models were killed by CC Attacks over the course of the game, and check if enough models were killed to meet the conditions. Now, in a normal game a player can't kill any models with CC attacks before having the Predator as a "active" classified objective, but for countermeasures we have a rotating pool of objectives, and the "end of the game" is changed for end of any player's turn, but I don't see anything in the rules that would indicate that the models killed with CC attacks only count towards completing the Predator card after the card is flipped into the current mission objectives. This might be counter-intuitive at the start, but Predator is the only classified objective that would work this way, since all other cards are written in the "complete the action right now" time frame. See my response to Mahtamori above, but the shorter version is that the Predator card is the only one with it's "Objective" part written in present perfect, which indicates an action that started in the past and continues in the present, and all the others are written in a simple present time, indicating an action happening right now, for example with Telemetry: "To succeed at an attack against an enemy trooper using Forward Observer or Spotlight hacking program", and if it was written in the way Predator is it would read like "At the end of the game the player must have succeeded at an attack against an enemy trooper using Forward Observer or Spotlight hacking program", maybe the simpler explanation would be that the Predator is the only Classified Objective written in a way that checks if the completion criteria were met in the past, while all others are checking for completion only in the present moment.
Sorry if I'm losing you about half-way through your argument. I think you might be over-thinking this a bit too much. All objectives are present tense, you claim them when you do the thing that's on the card. Predator being the odd one out is just something to deal with. Both interpretations are reasonable, but I think being able to count kills only while the card is face up is a big ask. On re-reading the objectives and on reflection of how difficult getting a unit into CC is, I'd say that the simplest read is; claim Predator at the end of any Player Turn if you up to that point have killed 2+ units in melee. Yes, that makes it a free mission card if it's flipped up and you've already gone on a murder spree with a Fiday or something and that's not something that Nomads or Pan-O typically does, but not every faction is going to be equally good at all objectives - what would that look like? Everyone playing Haqq is what that'd look like.
I'm sorry for being too wordy with my argument, I do tend to overthink things. Basically this question came up in my local meta, and people argued that Predator could only be scored with CC kills made in the turn it was flipped into the objective pool and since I play in a non-native English speaking meta it was hard for me to explain the difference between how the Predator and other cards are worded, so I was asked to post this question on the forum so that there would be an answer from somebody who speaks English as the first language, and I wasn't 100% sure if I understood how this works correctly, I think with this it's clear enough for now "claim Predator at the end of any Player Turn if you up to that point have killed 2+ units in melee." Thank you for your time!
Don't worry. Well written rules should not require an English Major, in my opinion. I'd say about half the people on the forums, me included, aren't English natives and the other half is predominantly US <insert colonial era quip here> Just, everyone's got a limited attention span. That's all. They've been leaning strongly towards favouring the simplest and most literal reading of the rules more with each edition, so if you want to play it as official as possible, play it as literal as possible.
I would like to point out that most 'Murricans don't actually English real good. Rules are inherently a struggle to interpret, requiring a bunch of ordering logic that is not always simple for anyone to figure out. CB's been doing a good job of cleaning that stuff up recently, and for everything unclear we have helpful folks on the forum. Not a bad arrangement!
