As for the title of this topic I was wondering which could be considered the most valid units to take in consideration when it comes to list building, speaking of solely ARO. I read in the community that for a lot of people the MB ML in a five man link it is the choice, when it comes to that. What about the Reaktion Zond ? I did not seen it came up often in the lists that has been discussed in previous topics. And in regards of the Feuerbach Sputnik ? It is mentioned often, but I read it to be considered a bit under the MB ML. I also read about the Intruder being a possible ARO piece, when the chance it comes. Still, to me it is a piece that might work better during the active turn. Apart from link team choices, and not counting the obvious ( to me ) Jaguars, which are the options CJC players would consider during list building ? I can think off the following : - Reaktion Zond - Moran Masai Hunter ( Suppressive Fire + Koala ) - Lunokhod - Gecko ( Suppressive Fire )
-Reaktion -Moran -A few linked options, I think the strongest is Lunakhod -Transductor -Jaguar Faust Specialised ARO units is another way of saying turn 1 ARO units. A basic mechanic of the game is using whoever is needed for AROs thruout the game, and Corregidor does little to avoid that with few dedicated ARO options.
the warcor, that's right ! 3 points of pure fun. When it comes to the Jaguars, playing solo, how do you guys overcome the fact they will become furious once they made a kill ? The transductor zonds are one of my favorite profiles, still it is hard to fill those and make enough room also for the rest.
If they make a kill and live they could turn around and go home for all I care. They still generate an order and if for some reason I don't want to use their impetuous order for a free hail mary I can just not use it.
* Lupe in a Core / Haris * Transductor * Billie * Alg FO (core-linked) These all layer in additional AROs that provide defensive depth; they're not high-end AROs. Personally I find these types of AROs important to a lists performance: they're the AROs that actually tend to stop Alphas (which usually have a way of pushing past your primary AROs). * Alg ML (core-linked) * Alg MSR (core-linked) Largely displaced by mixed links, these still provide an option in large lists that don't go the Tsyklon Feurbach route. Solid and cheap, but not really dependable. Personally I rate Feurbach Tsyklons over MB MLs because of 3 factors: 1. Cost (8pts and 1SWC goes a long way in CJC) 2. Active turn potential (B3 MML2 Feurbach outperforms a MB ML in most regular situations) 3. Range bands (16-32" is, I find, usually easier to set up more conservatively so that your opponent can't trivially delete you from inside their DZ or able to push under your guns) Re: Intruders MSRs as AROs. You can certainly make these work. Aggressive coverage with Jaguars so that Smoke covers them before they're Discovered is key. Going this route I think there's more value in deploying them on relatively conservative cross-table ARO duty T1 to be more aggressive with them T2/3.
There's a workable theory behind them. If SWC isn't an issue then saving points on an ARO is great because it is by definition a disposable unit. If you can't win in ARO anyways you may as well lose less. It does broaden how many enemy units can kill your ARO, which is why I prefer the MSR for the better +3 range reducing the threat from SK. I've had someone run out of options except to run past the Intruder and hope I miss multiple games in the same day. It's as far from auto-play as a unit gets thou. I'm planning to take it every game again once N4 hits.
FB is superior in the majority of cases, you lose the template but gain better range bands, higher burst in active, MML2, cheaper. I don't rate the Intruder as an ARO piece at all, unless things have gone sideways and you're desperate otherwise you are just paying 42/2 just to be down an order for the entire game. and odds are you have already taken the HMG and LT already so taking a third isn't really ideal. As for other options; Transductors/billie/warcor/linked FOs: all solid and dirt cheap Reaktion, its fine for the most part but most people have a way to trivially remove it so it doesnt end up costing your opponent any real amount of orders so its seldom worth taking, and it competes with the tsyklon when it comes to supportware. Morans, nothing better for slowing down an opponent especially when backed up by a half decent AHD and KHD, and in suppressive fire (never forget the flash pulse on them). Jags, PF is good but the standard CR is amazing for close in point defense and anti warband/ AD and punishing anything that gets pushed too far forward by an overly aggressive opponent. Wildcat HRL/ Lupe, linked 32 guns are good in ARO Lunokhod, this is basically your third moran, best body guard unit in the faction and great at pinning impersonators (providing they aren't backed up by strategos 3, which is most of them), and keeping irritant pieces out of your DZ, plus the AK is a sweet bonus, and between koalas and a HSG it doesn't need support and is happy playing area denial until you need it.
pulsebots (transductor, warcor and billie) are chear for what they offer and I think they should be in any ARO list moran and lunokhod are a good zone-denial tool, but easy to counter (another perimetral dude or zondbot-like can clear them easy) for long range, the safe way are MB ML in 5-man fireteam. Strong, durable, frightening...and the most expensive. The cheap version are alguacile ML/MSR, or tsyklon FB in a mid spot for solo and long range there are reaktion and MSR intruder. Those two have their own good and bad points. They work well against different kind of opponents (the TR-bot can be easily countered by smoke-combo, while that don't work against the intruder, on the other hand, the intruder is a bit overcosted in my opinion. While he is still good, he is not the great piece he was in n2 anymore but pay a lot for that camo marker compared with those that are only "mimetic" (and now have even access to link)
He was like 52 points in N2 for no reason! Tbf the camo marker is still really good defensively, even if the surprise shot is less useful now.
For some reason I was mixing the extremely furious rule with the furios one. My sentence decade at all, after that. The jaguars keep being even better than before after that. Those are the same reasons I was considering myself, still I was keep thinking about the fact that the Brigada can be healed and keep firing, and also can go prone ( maybe it will be possible in N4 also for REMs ? ), without losing the chance to firing back if necessary. when it comes to that, there is any particular reason that might make prefer a transductor over a reaktion ? I mean both are ARO, and at any chance bot suffers from the same kind of attacks. There is any reason, that might make a couple of transductor a better choice than a reaktion ?
Any camo sniper with enough range can just nail a TR bot, no questions asked, the reason why you take the flash bots is they are dirt cheap and dont cost SWC (which is a massive thing in CJC, you dont want to wasting on SWC on stuff whose only job is to die), have mimetism so they are a little harder to put down, and you project defensive areas over a larger area. Also for the cost of a reaktion you can have 2 transductors and a jag, which is more orders, more utility, and more defensive pieces your opponent needs to deal with. The other thing is, Transductors do more than just flashpulse, they bolster the repeater net, and with their 6-6 mov they allow for the dispersal of sniffers to counter camo spam or to ensure that there are no TO units lurking in an area to want to move into (providing you have sensor).
In the tables I usually play, the ML has not so much rangeband problems. Most of the first ARO shots are done in the 24-32 zone, and the extra longer range allows to different positioning (forcing even longer ARO, which are usually better against HMGs. They are different, and make deploy different, so I don't understand why say "worse rangeband". The template also is something to take into account (that may change in N4, true), not only it takes out the extra arm from cover, but it also slows down fireteams or force them to do dodges. Yes, there are tables where those long rangebands are not needed, the same way there are tables where longer rangebands are. yes, but that is also because X-visor and MSR were a bit more expensive (with some differences in the rangebands having a -6 in the MSR, and with combined ammo if needed, but I think I only used that with the sin eater), and there was a formula change that affected a lot of expensive units. Still, both surprise shot and smoke combo changes hit him hard (and I liked then the changes because it gave him more chances of survival when using that surprise shot against a thought oponent).
they are worse because it is trivially easy to engage them under the 24, and take them down. the zero band on an ML extends to at least the midway line or significantly past it, and is still out ranged by a sniper which makes it pretty trash at defending your side of the table. the FB on the other hand has 16 to 32 where the majority of engagements happen, and is a hell of a lot harder to get into its bad bands as well as it contests the relevant areas of the table (the midfield where all the objectives are) with the best possible odds, as well as being a good active turn gun should it be needed. the other thing that need to be taken into account is terrain and just cover, if there are low vis zones and other vis mod terrain zones then that +0 under 24 goes from bad to damn near crippling. In this particular case the FB will ignore the more relevant aspect of cover (the -3 mod) as opposed to the arm, and the template isn't really all that useful. From my experience, in the rare occasion that you see an assault team the leader is normally as far forward as he can be so as he's the only one getting hit, or the others are positioned in such a way that they cant be hit thanks to terrain geometry. The only times I've taken an ML and not been incredibly disappointed and wishing I took a HRL instead has been on Hollowmen, because using super jump shots to nail things I wouldn't be able to normally is great. The other time was when whomever made the table I was playing on fucked up royally and put a doom tower (tall sniper tower with super dominating lines of fire) in the back corner of the DZ and i was able to park a riot grrl up there and kept my opponent pinned in their DZ. Also the grid when that used to be a mission, I liked having a lone hollowman ML in my list purely to run/jump around and pop the antennae.
well... "most of the engagements"... that would deppend on your rivals weaponry. When I use ML they try to outrange it with MSR (which is the same for FB), or get below 24, and with the correct positioning and koalas, they need to engage first in the 24-32 range, so usually there is no real difference. The template will have not so much impact if the enemy does his moves right. of course, but that's why I say it slows him down, the menace is there (against FB, that way of moving is not needed so they don't need to slow down at all), and in most scenarios, before getting in that "below 24" the ML is allready outranging HMGs. I haven't played much corregidor, but this last year (only a few friendly games) but I've played a lot TJC (well, not so much since covid and so...), and as an ARO piece, the ML grenzer has been more frightening for my oponents than the securitate FB, and while the best range is the MSR, the most damage (number of casualties) has been dealt also by the ML. I've tried a lot of combinations, and the weapon I miss more when I don't put it in a defensive fireteam is the ML. The same goes when I am the one that has to face a ML, some people here has changed from MSR to ML and that has a huge effect on my deployment zone and the way I have to move my dudes. On the other side, I wouldn't say a HRL is as good as ARO. The HRL has the advantage or the R in active turn, which makes it more different, better active but worse ARO piece than both in my opinion. They are different tools for different situations.
The feuerbach getting +0 past 32" makes any unit that can shoot at that range still not good enough to win against a fireteam. ML is fine too I would say the template for the closer bad range is pretty even. I favor the feuerbach for reduced SWC on LI/REM. In general I find that weapons with better range than HMG and SS2 on the fireteams becoming common really killed the offensive sniper niche which I am obviously not too happy about. It also made losing against the AROs final in most cases. A lot of games feel like they start with an advantage coin flip for who gets the first kill, my best gunner or their fireteam. Either loss puts that player way behind. If my meta was more ruthless I would probably be using a fully linked Briaga HMG just to win that first exchange, I wouldn't be surprised to see a meta shift towards absolute active clearing power. I wish I had a Dragoes.
Can a major number of models ( in two transductors and a jaguar, out one reaktion ) might become a drawback when it comes to deploy and overall movement over the table ? Investing in cheap models usually it goes down the route of having 15~17 models to care off, leave a lot of the success of the mission to the table composition between covers and possible routes. Or I am missing something here ? Hands down about the fact a reaktion could be put down by a sniper, but as far as I can tell snipers or a super-jump fireteam with a ML, are usually the sort of case scenario that players bring on the table when they want to discuss something really hard to counter. So, in front of that, it could be a reaktion zond, or either a fireteam or anything of such a value, the problem still remain. Thinking about the sensor / sniffers, does it have a real usefulness as it could be for other pieces or it is most of all situational based on the army you might encounter ? I was thinking about adding one in a list for a game I will have this w/e probably, but then realized that for it to work it will be necessary also to add the transductor, better if two. And if so, an engineer will be a must, possibly a Tomcat. and here it goes 55 points goes into an idea of a strategy that it might be not worth the points invested into it. Sure the engineer once on the table could possibly flaming over units or just bring back to work other REM, but the sensor itself it does rely on the transductor to work.
well, snipers are not so rare, but are not the only thing the TR-bots need to be afraid off. Smoke-combo is not so rare, and infiltrators/AD troops can get into the -3 range and kill them, that's where the cheap dudes help to deffend the long range ones against that kind of taktic. Also, having extra dudes give extra orders, which are more resources to do things in your turn
To the whole ML debate, although I see both points to be valid, the whole range discussion is pointless in the vaccum. You do not deploy an ARO piece to contest in unfavourable ranges, period. Would you place a Combi to guard a long lane? No, right? Brigada ML is an amazing piece when you deploy second, on scenery shadow of a MSR so it can´t be outranged, and in CJC can be easily covered in the approach lanes by a Moran, Bandit, or even the linked Combis that are going to be with it, creating an amazing puzzle that will lock down the opponent there. Now with Daks in the link to patch her up, she is less vulnerable to smoke tricks with SSL2, and a BS13 ARM4 W2 fully linked is tough, tough tough. MOBILE BRIGADA Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 40) TSYKLON Spitfire, Pitcher / Electric Pulse. (1 | 31) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) 3 SWC | 105 Points This is the basis of list-building for me, then I can consider a Hacker in the team or outside, the Clockmaker, and how to cram the midfield, but that link there is already giving you a flexible ARO/Active combo. For 10 more points you get full-link protection for reforming if the MB dies... and I typically prefer that to be 18 points and an Alg Hacker, since it can buff the Tsyklon unlinked as well. As for the Sensor investment, really few armies do not have Camo midfield skirmishers or mines, so a lot of the time it pays itself. At the minimum, to uncover a mine that you can shot from afar and removes mindgames, saving you orders when dealing with it, or discovering that Camo skirmisher that is reliant on Surprise Shot to win that first exchange. I like it a lot but have the worst luck when fielding the fragile remotes.
