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CHICHARRA - 3D printable hopper

Discussion in 'Scenery' started by TopoSolitario, Feb 1, 2018.

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Would you like the Chicharra to be deployed as a Kickstarter campaign?

Poll closed Mar 3, 2018.
  1. NO, it has work behind but I want it FREE for all

    17.2%
  2. YES, I want to support the efforts behind its design to get more options and add ons

    82.8%
  1. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    And... the test print!
    chicharra - screenshot 00.jpg
    chicharra - screenshot 01.jpg
    The legs are strong enough but an accidental fall will probably snap it off... it is the design.
    There are some corrections to be done, the overhang on the fuel nacelles is just too much, I've to explore some solution, but adding more angle is impossible on this design... maybe adding fixed supports or something... I'll work on it.
    Hull union is tricky too, I'll add plate separation there to make it look better.
    The engine pods are a bit loose... it is ok if you put some tape in the rods, but I can adjust the tolerance a bit.
    The rest seems perfect, the new size and shape of the engine nacelles prints great and looks pretty nice.
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Looks VERY good!

    If I might suggest something, maybe plates that interlock between the back piece and the main body? Not in a jigsaw pattern, but to cover (like a hand covering a fist) so the line of union is not so evident.
    Also, to have something on the back tail to break the monotony would be great, maybe some piping or access panels? Considering how small it is, space is a premium, so there must be little to no armor, and the fuselage must be thin as well, thus leading to exposed hydraulics and uncovered piping (to save on weight).

    Of course, we can paint big numbers on the top and bottom, since it seems a police vehicle more than a military one (unless used for fast insertions where you discard the vehicle).

    That being said, it's mostly me seeing the model unpainted, I'm sure when painted is gorgeous! ^^
     
  3. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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    The line union between the body and tail aren't that bad at all. Once you have glue, primer and paint you're really not going to notice it.
     
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  4. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    About the junction, if you take some care it is hard to notice (after some sanding you wouldn't see it at all), but it it will help if the top plate is viselated on both parts, and makes sense (as it is already viselated on the back near the heading thrusters).

    The top plate is like that on purpose, it has a top hatch (for emergencies and maybe to have a "door gunner" on top, but the rest of the top armor/reinforcement is flat to make the effort of painting on it, be it numerals for civilian/police vehicle or camo patterns for military versions. You can have a look at the paper models to find out some flavours http://www.toposolitario.com/workshop/chicharra.html

    The model is like a robin, a bird can't have big bones... this one has some armor on top, as his way of flight will be mostly NOE (nap on earth) most attacks could came from orbit or air supperiority drones. Ground fire is something to take into account but for that, the Chicharra should jump in, drop and jump out before enemy have time to take it down.
    Then, to reduce weight on the hull, there are many structural reinforcements with holes along the body of the bird... that way it can support high stress with lighter body. That is the idea behind all the crevasses on the body.

    About the model to be civilian or military, I got the Kiowa/Jetranger helicopter in mind when I designed the original paper model, a bird mainly built for civilian market that have it's role in police and military affairs. It can be a commodities transport, a corporate flyer, a close air support bird or a commando insertion platform... whatever fits better on your table. :)
    This one has a very high vision cockpit (glass on the bottom front and sides) perfect for urban environments.
     
  5. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    IMPORTANT NOTICE
    I'm planning a crazy project... I participated on items from some Kickstarter Campaigns... for Micro Art Studio, Antenociti's Workshop and some other small projects, but I've never done one on my own. I've not much spare time for any project.. I stole some time from my regular job to work on the Chicharra, but that was exceptional. So, to be able to take the Chicharra where I want, I've to "buy" some additional time. That is, having all the military add ons, the model with detailed interior and some scenery to go with it requires effort and effort means time I've to strip from my family time. :grinning:

    So, I've created on the first post a poll to ask what you think about it, becouse your oppinion is important to me. The idea is to ask you what would you like... to have it free (yes, everyone loves free stuff) or if you will see right to pay a fair price for the model, to ensure I can get time to work on it, make it better, create add-ons and additional pieces to go with it.

    As I said, what you think about it is important to me. :grinning::+1: Thank you for your answers and your comments.
     
  6. jherazob

    jherazob Well-Known Member

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    How about a middle ground, using the KS to fund development of all the niceties with stretch goals for all you desire, then putting the finished STL model on something like wargamevault with "pay what you want"? The development will be funded, people who want it free will get it free, and the ones that later want to contribute can pay for your beers.
    Just an idea, of course, i'm a filthy casual when it comes to business stuff
     
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  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    1$ support level: get the Chicharra model, plus be warned about the development of the KS, instead of just being warned :p
     
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  8. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    :beers::beers::beers: Beer! Beer! Beer!

    Buying time means a bit more than having an excuse with my family and job to invert the time needed to finish the model and add ons and running the campaign...I'll do my best to include some beer :grinning:

    I'm not making the campaign to make a lot of money but to get a justification to the time invested and the time invested by others suffering my hobby. Honestly, the idea came after a couple of comments in facebook and seeing other succesful campaigns with just stl files where the models were somehow simple or basic... but at first the model is planed to go straight to Thingiverse... but it is growing and devouring more time than expected.

    My initial thoughts about the campaign goes in the line of having this options:
    - A supercheap option (covering VAT, KS fee and other spanish taxes and almost nothing more) that will include the base model, what I got right now.
    - A true supporter option, that will include the model and all the add-ons I can make for it... including all things to be put on the hardpoints (sensor / target aquisition pod, rocket launchers and fixed gun, infinity style) a different front section for the military version (with better armor and sensor dependant cockpit) and the detailed interior version.
    - A completist option, coverin previous one and adding Scenery to go with it. Main item will be an elevated landing platform to be put on top of buildings or ground level. And would include fuel boxes and other small stuff.

    Supercheap (still making numbers) could go from 3 to 6€... complete option should not go beyond 25€, but still making numbers and estimating spent times. For the last Corvus Belli's terrain projects (from Usariadna to Red Veil) and other personal projects (like the thunder road cars and Aristeia's cubes) I've been using online time consumption apps... to help me control the time and effort I put on this kind of projects. In the end even the most basic project take a LOT of hours. :persevere:

    I'm trying to read all I can found about how to not make a bad crowdfunding project... and the 1$ option you can see in many many projects is usually not adviced, becouse it means not much of a support and, with spanish taxes, spanish VAT and KS bite, it turns into almost 0$. It's crazy but numbers don't lie much :S
     
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  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    At least, earn enough to pay for someone to paint your Aristeia miniatures! So the time invested on 3D design will translate to time used in painting XD.

    I'd keep it all digital, since you run the risk of having tons of orders and sending those can be a nightmare, unless you can arrange it all with a 3D printing service and you only need to give them the adresses and the money (making it so only the basic chicharra and the landing pad are printed can help the logistics...).
     
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  10. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the idea is to keep it digital. I didn't have the resources to mass produce a model, and this one is not even resin-cast oriented but made for FDM small printer. Logistics are the worst enemy of newbie project creators :grinning:

    There are many other STL only campaigns really successful out there, but again my idea is not to get a lotz of money from the community but to be able to make it better with much more options. :grin::+1:
     
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  11. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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    Ya, I'd be happy to throw money at this as Chicharra is better then 90% of the vehicles I've seen come out of kickstarter for printing. There are a lot of really low effort designs that make money. It will be nice to see another high quality piece go up.
     
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  12. Shingen

    Shingen Well-Known Member

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    I’ve voted yes in your poll and would be happy to throw money your way, however, I’m not sure KS is such a good way of organizing this particular thing. With their fees and credit card fees you may be left with unsatisfying amount in the end.
     
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  13. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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    I dono. There's been some pretty low effort 3d model kickstarters that have pulled in around $1-2k the past few months. If it's this model and all the extra weapons he planning plus some terrain I'd be dumbfounded if he couldn't at least make some beer money off of this.

    Topo, I've also seen people sell rights to print and sell models for 2-3 years via the kickstarter for a few hundred as well and there are always a few buyers. You know better then I what rights like that are worth and it's something you could consider.
     
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  14. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your comments, I've already do the math and fees are pretty stratightforward, the tricky part is the fiscal part of the game. In Spain we seem to have additional fees but all in all it is like this (full transparency) :nerd_face:

    Let's start with a superbacked successfull FIRST project... 6.000€ (7.347$).

    Campaign related fees:
    • Kickstarter fee is 5%: -300€
    • Additional fee for affiliates (depending on contribution so this is aproximate): -280€
    • Banking/paypal taxes (worst case scenario 5%): -300€
    Fiscal stuff, this is the hardest part, first I'm currently not an autonomous worker, so I've to pay taxes thru another partner enterprise (in this case, my girlfriend and mother of my son Ulises :sweat_smile:) that means that the bite on her next fiscal period will be bigger (about additional 1200-2400€ estimated worst case in IRPF taxes in Spain becouse she jumps to another superior scale for the additional income, these are BIG numbers so there may be a +-30% variation).
    • VAT (IVA in spain) 21%: -1260€
    • IRPF increment: -1200€ to -2400€
    Luckily there is no machining cost nor logistics far from the time spent sending the files. The only additional taxes could be some bannering, maybe a commisioned paintwork, and other promotion time I should spend by myself (hate that part as I prefer to spend the time actually worikng on the 3D models... :slightly_frowning_face:). Photo and art for the campaign is something I can work on (got a lightbox and alpha7 camera, enough for the job). And one of the stretch goals will be a miniature I expect my brother to do for free :sweat_smile: (here it is his shapeways shop: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/panzervstanks he is the one behind the crew miniatures for the UBOOT game that emerged recently)
    • Estimated 500€ on painting and promotion.
    So, all in all that brand 6000€ turns in the end into 1000€ to 2200€ clean income. Being the biggest bite taxes in Spain, VAT is tricky as you cold get back the VAT you pay for items/services related to your business... but this campaign will have a really low cost (no transport, no machining, almost no nothing) and my girlfriend is currently declaring ALL she can for the VAT (she has a small clothing brand with investmen in fabrics, shiping/packaging and a little on additional machines). Maybe some of that VAT paid could came back but I'm not optimistic :weary: you know, economic situation in Spain is not the best and the government is crushing individual entrenpeneurs with a huge amount of taxes. For you to know, even if she has zero income one month, she has to pay 275€ fee MONTHLY, I'm not taking that into account as she is already paying that for her business).

    So, there is still a good benefit, that pays for the 80 hours I estimate will chop the campaign (campaign and modelling) at a rate from 15 to 27€ hour... which is good enough. Maybe a "house cleaning project" means more money/hour.. but means much less satisfaction for the soul :laughing:.

    Forgot to say... a less successful campaign will impact less on the IRPF taxes, so maybe the income ratio is better with less success :stuck_out_tongue:Almost all expenses are percentual over the raw money except additional taxes increment that really depends on the scale applied for the total income of the year. Tables are something like "if you got 20.000€ you have to pay 12%, but if you got 20.001€ then you have to pay 15%... so for winning one more euro you loose 358€ in taxes" not exactly like that but you got the idea... and this is really the biggest money issue with the campaign :frowning:

    Thank you for your attention and reading my boring insights :blush::+1:
     
    #34 TopoSolitario, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  15. Shingen

    Shingen Well-Known Member

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    Well, from what you write, and I’m by no means tax adviser proficient in Spanish taxes, I’d consider your industrious girlfriend first buying the piece of work from you. This shall generate costs on her side (usually deductible from her general income) and income (most probably taxable) on your side, however, this may let you both avoid that steep progression you write about. Also – as it is true in some European countries, I’d check if there are no tax reliefs on income generated by transfer of copyright which shall take place in the above situation.


    Please do not consider above as any kind of tax advice, any decisions you’d make in that regard shall be your own risk.


    Also what I meant previously, but for some reason did not stress enough, KS campaign should probably be only prelude to some long-term commercialization of your work which may bring more money in the long run.
     
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  16. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    It seems like a good plan, but for that I need to be able to legally bill her for the model, which is something I can't do unless I became autonomous entrepreneur myself (with the 275€ monthly fee and so). Maybe I can be it just for one month, but that will collide with my regular job on the anual tax and generate more expenses. Spain is a beatifull place :weary:

    Alternative is to not declare it at all... but lately, spanish "hacienda" is even planing to take a bite on person to person microtransaction apps for used goods... so it is quite impossible to go "below their radar" and sanctions could be heavy. Apart from that I'm a bit of socialist and I think taxes pays for a better country (even in a country devoured by political corruption) so I don't like to critizice in others something bad I do too, I prefer to be legal always.

    This thread is turning into a Kickstarter FAQ and spanish tax legislation one! :smiley::smiley::smiley: It is good for me, I think that this theme is really interesting, but the first chicharra should be called the TAX COLLECTOR, and will have a nose art of a donkey with two big gold coin boxes on the sides and an arrow driven directly on his back quarters (Sheriff of Nottingham's donkey style). :smile:
     
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  17. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    Warning: I am a bit rough (as in telling you are wrong without any makeup) in this post.

    Your VAT is wrong. Not that it saves you much.
    Always do it this way: say something costs 121 with VAT. That means without it was 100. Easy suspicious numbers.
    Because then you realize 100/121 =0.8264... and 21/121 = .1735... ((100 + 21) / 121, 1, the whole thing).
    For 6000 with VAT you have to discount around 1042 (as in 6000 * .1735).
    No idea if KS fee would go in or out VAT (6000 vs 5700) due to different countries (are they EU?).
    But about the 21% becoming 17% "the other way" I'm pretty sure, it's maths and I always use the 121 trick to confirm.

    And you don't know how IRPF works either. It's a progressive tax.
    You never lose money because you go up a band. And if a rich says he will pay 50% or whatever if you raise the band he reaches, he lies or don't knows either. Nobody pays what their last band says.
    You pay the % of a band for the money that falls in that band. Quick example, two bands, 0-100K rate 10% and 100+ rate 20%. Anyone with 100K or less pay 10%, but going to 105K is not 20% (21K), but 10% of 100K (10K) and 20% of 5K (1K), total 11K. Even going from 100K to 100K-plus-1 is no loss, because you pay 10% of 100K and 20% of 1 (you make 80 cents more than before).
    Found a picture with real values:
    [​IMG]
    In this example those that reach the 40-something-% band with 60-something-K are really paying less than 30%, and the ones at the end with 250K pay less than 40%, yet everyone will claim 40-something-% rate (black line), because the effective % is the red line. I don't know at what amount the red line crosses the 44% (1 million? 2?), but I'm sure it will never touch the 45%.

    Now, "entrepeneur fee"... that is a tax raping that has gone in Spain for a long time. Taking as example other places where such fees are based in how much money is really handled, it's easy to explain why those other places have more small business, part time side business and people giving a try to wild ideas: because they can try and grow from small (or stay there forever), legally, instead of jumping against a tall wall the first day (with new temp law, the wall is delayed 2 years or so for some cases, just small wall of 50 per month, but if you don't get big enough by then or have a row of bad months... *thump* another stain in the wall).
     
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  18. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    Actually we are both wrong. IRPF tables work as you say (my example was wrong, and based on partial information) but only for paid-employments not for self-employments. If you're an autonomous worker you don't have anual IRPF, you should pay on the bill, monthly or every three months. And percentage is not based on table but fixed. We've talking yesterday with her financial manager (the one that do all the paper work for her business) and she actually has 7% IRPF as she was on business less than 2 years (420€ on this tax is prettier than the other scenario). IRPF estimation on my previous post was made using a simulator against my current income if I start working for another business (that is using a third party enterprise for billing and resulting in a two-job situation), that pops MY anual IRPF up about 2400€... but again this is nonsensical if we can go for the self-employment.

    Abut the VAT you're right if the 6000€ includes VAT as this will be an spanish based campaign... but I still couldn't find if this is the case or after the succesfull campaign Kickstarter spanish affiliate (that already is getting his bite) will charge for the additional VAT. I suspect this will be the case so the worst case scenario will be 21% vat over the 6000€ for an additional 1260€, and not a total 6000€ including VAT.
    I'me still looking to it. At least, as there is no "shipping" included this could be considered service and no goods, appliying the spanish VAT for all pledges no matter where you are. That's bad for the numbers :disappointed:

    Anyway, all information is really appreciated as I got zero experience on taxation. And I actually hate it! :joy:

    This post is really turning into a financial monster... so there goes a photo! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    chicharra - screenshot 03.jpg
     
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  19. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure the 7% (or 15%) is not just a retention (monthly/quarterly pre-pays)? And then every year, pay whatever is left to reach what the bands say.
    But hmm... the retention is done by the company when paying a bill to the self-employed. And KS seem to take Pilatos approach, wash hands (at least it says so about UK and VAT there). What a mess.
     
  20. TopoSolitario

    TopoSolitario Well-Known Member

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    Heads up! I've finally came to an agreement with the mother of Ulises to create a Kickstarter, that allowed me to take some additional time on the model, which is great! I've been already working on the corrections, adding additional detail to some dull parts, making the fuel nacelles 45º-rule compliant (the overhang went about 15º off and it looked really bad) and adding chisel to hull union.
    I've came to an agreement with the painter, a good friend, Filantro-Polo, who does a really amazing paint jobs on WH40k vehicles. He likes dirt, mud, rust and WW2 painting style in general. So it is perfect for a weathered battletorn Chicharra.

    And finally, here it is a sneak peek of the first prototype for the "stings":

    Chicharra Sneak peek.jpg

    The rocket/missile launcher s a two piece part with 8 hex pattern tubes. You can see the left pack from the rear, so, the shape is odd to avoid hitting the front-left landing leg.

    The gun is mounted partially in the front of the fuel nacelle (notice the two hardpoints on front of it in the model) and partially below the nacelle. You can see the front barrel (it will be glued to the back ammo rack and chain-operated parts). This way the recoil is absorved on perpendicular by the nacelle instead of stressing the underwing hardpoints, and anchoring on two axis, the gun is more stable during flight.
    About the printing, this piece is REALLY tiny. I'm going to make it a little bigger on the final version, but even being so small, it took all details modelled and looks awesome on the model.

    My plans were to work on this extras during the campaign, but I prefer to use my time as soon as I get it. Who knows if I will have enough spare time later... :fearful:
     
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