This is not a very good example, as the reason you can doctor someone in NWI is because it has the clear line saying that you explicitelly can. I would actually say quite the opposite. You -can't- Coup de Grace an enemy in NWI or Dogged. Because the states are not the same. And on top of this, we have skills like Explode L1 that clearly differenciate Unconscious from Dogged.
Hmm. That's not how I came to that conclusion at all. I believe you are referring to this line in the cancellation clauses of NWI: "The No Wound Incapacitation state may also be cancelled by healing the affected trooper (using Special Skills or Equipment such as Doctor, AutoMediKit, MediKit, Regeneration...), making it recover at least one point of its Wounds Attribute and returning it to the Normal state." This is strong support for being allowed to doctor an NWI trooper, but the real meat is right here in the Doctor skill and effects of NWI: Doctor: "The target must be in Unconscious state." NWI: "The Unconscious state of troopers using the Special Skill No Wound Incapacitation has the following special rules:" "No Wound Incapacitation alters the Unconscious state of the user, removing the Null Label." "This means that No Wound Incapacitation allows the trooper to ignore the effects of the Unconscious state, treating it like the Normal state instead." Specifically, the underlined section above. The NWI trooper is still in the unconscious state, it just doesn't have the unconscious marker or null label and ignores all effects of said state. Coup de Grace has this in its requirements, however: "The user must be in base to base contact with an Unconscious enemy (marked by an Unconscious or Spawn-Embryo Marker)." Underlined for emphasis. The reason you can't Coup de Grace a Dogged or NWI troop is that they both have these lines in the effects: "Instead of placing an Unconscious Marker next to the trooper, place a V3: NWI Marker." "Instead of placing an Unconscious Marker next to the trooper, place a V2 Marker." And lastly, I'm arguing that the reason Explode L1 doesn't go off when you go Dogged is because it is implied by the "Remember Box" which simply says you can't use Explode when going straight to dead from the Dogged state (implying that you can't have used it when going into the Dogged state because it's obligatory). If true for Explode, it might be true for chest mines, but the reasoning is not there so it's hard to judge... which is why this thread is here ;).
@Sabin76, mate, you're drunk, go take a rest =D Dogged has exactly the same line you underlined in the NWI rule: The reason why NWI allows the troop to be recovered from that state by a Doctor or Paramedic is the absence of this line (that can be found in the Effects of Dogged): Once activated, this state prevents the trooper from being healed by Special Skills or Equipment such as Doctor, AutoMediKit, MediKit, Regeneration...). Moreover, I cannot do my head around the reason why you keep pushing this thing about Explode not working when a troop enters Dead state directly, bypassing Unconscious. When a troop with V: Dogged enters the Unconscious state, is controller gets to choose whether to activate the skill. If they do, the Unconscious state is replaced by Dogged state, and instead of happily lying on the ground with its eyes shut, your dude dies at the end of the turn. Chest Mines self-detonate at the end of the Order during which the troop entered the Unconscious state, not at the end of the turn. So at the end of the Order where you activated V: Dogged of your Krakot lady, when the game checks if our Morat chick is Dead, it finds that she is not, and proceeds to be stuck in a decision loop, because CB didn't think of this interaction when they were designing Kendrat [emoji14] Also, are you implying that State Markers can exist separately from the States they are helping to denote? With your reasoning it seems that you can have a model in Unconscious state denoted by an NWI or Dogged marker. Are you completely sure this is how the game works?
I definitely disagree with your reasoning here. In order to Doctor someone, they must (a) be in base to base, (b) have a target with the W attribute, and (c) be in the unconscious state. The reason that line is there for Dogged is because it's an unconscious state that would normally allow you to Doctor them up! Since that goes against the idea of the rule, they added that line in to make sure you couldn't heal someone who went Dogged (and that they, 100% died at the end of the turn). I don't think you are understanding my point. It's not the fact that Explode doesn't go off when Dogged brings you to dead. It's that you had to be in the Dogged state to begin with in order for that scenario to happen. This means, by inference, that when you went Dogged, you couldn't have Exploded already, since it's an obligatory skill. The question is why. This is not explained. Dogged and NWI both, very clearly, state that they are "the unconscious state" with some modifications. I am, indeed, arguing that a trooper in either state is also in the unconscious state, even in absence of the unconscious marker, and I am quite sure that's how the game works.
Yes, this was something that I wasn't fully aware of, but then there's this reminder box which totally confused me into thinking there is some way to enter Dogged while having Explode skill. Thanks for clarifying that. You know, this was something I didn't catch initially. It actually looks you might be right and the troop is then in both states, but for some reason is only marked with one Marker, which is extremely confusing, and I guess my understanding of how States work in this game has just collapsed.
I guess I should be very clear here: I have played and will continue to play it as the "go to unconscious" part of Maestro is the ultimate goal as I do, actually, believe that's the intent of the program. What I am saying is that there is ambiguity in the wording and it should be cleared up since all we have is our belief on what the intent of Maestro is. Perhaps this is what IJW said was the intent was the last time this came around and that was that in my mind. However, since then - or, more specifically, since the creation of the unanswered questions thread and regular FAQs - I believe this is something that should be addressed. Also note that Maestro continues to work the way it's accepted now even if the emphasis is on the "lose all wounds". Since there are no more wounds to lose, it does nothing against a Dogged/NWI trooper. Edit: wait... I think I got my threads crossed. Yes, you are saying that since Maestro doesn't do anything to a Dogged/NWI trooper, that is evidence that Dogged/NWI is the unconscious state. I agree.
What part of Maestro has anything to do with Dogged / NWI being the same state? Maestro puts you in Unconscious, you can then activate Dogged because the condition to go in the Dogged state is to be put into Unconscious.
If you use Maestro on someone who is already Dogged/NWI it effectively does nothing (this would be another good example of someone being affected by something without suffering the effects of it) because you are already in the unconscious state.
Do you mean the part where it says "Failing one BTS Roll causes the target to lose all points of his Wounds/STR Attribute and enter the Unconscious state, or equivalent, signified by an Unconscious Marker in base to base contact."? Because it states Unconscious state or equivalent?
No one is saying the NWI and Dogged are the same states. They are Unconscious states though as supported by all the evidence.
We have skill like Maestro specifically called "or equivalent", while other skills only mention Unconscious state by name without mentionning "equivalent" states. This is the case for Explode L1 and Chest Mines. We have skill like Coup de Grace specifying that Unconscious is Embryo or Unconscious. We have skill like Explode L1 that has a reminder box (not a important box with extra rule) specifying that Unconscious and Dogged are not treated the same. - - - - - The game seems to treat "Unconscious" and "THE Unconscious State" as 2 different things. It's impossible to figure out if the devs wanted Chest Mines to trigger on going Unconscious or Unconscious. (lol)
