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Chasing a dodging unit

Discussion in 'Rules' started by QueensGambit, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    I activate my Krakot and move 4" towards my opponent's Swiss Guard. Unfortunately, I don't quite make it into b2b. Opponent declares dodge and says that if successful, he'll move 2" away from the Krakot. However, after the move he'd still be within 4" of the Krakot's current position.

    I'd like to use this order to reach b2b (it's my last order for the turn, and I want to tie up the Swiss Guard in cc). I declare that my second short skill will be a move to a point touching both the Swiss Guard's current position, and the position it'll be in if it succeeds at its dodge. Is this legal?

    My reading is yes: a successful dodge allows the Swiss Guard to exit cc, but it doesn't stop the Krakot from chasing him down and getting back into cc with his second short skill. But it's weird enough that I want to check with the forums...
     
  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    the order matters

    you declare your first move, then the swiss guard declares the dodge. Then, before any roll, you declare the next move and try to go into cc. You move and only then, the swiss guard rolls his die to see if he scapes or not. You don't know if he will scape or not untill all orders and AROs are declared
     
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  3. Tanan

    Tanan Member

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    Hmm. Tricky question.
    - Dodge move can’t be used to enter close combat -> If Swiss Guard is unengaged after 1st move, the dodge move is cancelled if it can’t be performed completely (?)

    If the Krakot player can block the dodge route using the 2nd move AND engage Swiss Guard at the same time, the dodge move is cancelled and Swiss Guard is engaged in melee.
     
  4. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    No, the dodge move is not cancelled. The dodge move stops short, just like if you had declared a 2" dodge that would have gone off the table, through a wall, through someone bigger than you, etc.

    Remember that the order sequence is:
    1. Active model declares and performs its Move.
    2. Reactive model declares Dodge, and when it does so declares the path for that dodge.
    3. Active model declares and performs its Move.
    4. The Reactive model rolls for its Dodge, and performs the Dodge move.

    The original poster's idea of "chasing down the dodging model" is fundamentally wrong due to timing. There's no escape and get back into base contact in the same order.

    Only partially correct. Remember that the trooper that declared ARO Dodge hasn't gone anywhere yet (and hasn't rolled for the Dodge) when that Swiss Guard is declaring its two moves.

    The Swiss Guard gets to where it has declared where it's going. Then you roll Dodge. If the Dodge is successful, then the Dodging trooper separates from whoever is engaging it and then tries to perform its Dodge move. If the path for that Dodge move is blocked, then the trooper doesn't go anywhere.
     
  5. Tanan

    Tanan Member

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    Hmm. I thought that active player movement could be used to cancel movement completely, like they cancel mine ARO deployment. Are there any other examples where active order movement causes ARO to be done only partially?

    This ruling also allows to you to drop dodging superjumpers to their death by blocking the landing area.

    Also, doesn’t 1mm disengagement need to be declared when a dodge ARO is declared?
     
    #5 Tanan, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  6. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    The key to this question seems to be the Engaged State and how its canceled, specifically the last bullet
    • A trooper can also cancel the Engaged state by succeeding in a Dodge Roll, whether it's a Normal or Face to Face Roll.
    So even if the Krakot moved to the end point of the Swiss Guards dodge the successful dodge would cancel the engaged state and presumably would push the models 1mm apart.
     
  7. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    But Krakot's get Berserk. Declare Assault and make them really sweat.
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    That was my first thought, but I'm not sure it's that simple. If you're already in the engaged state, then yes, succeeding at a dodge can cancel that state. The Swiss would declare "I'm dodging, and if successful, will move cancel the engaged state and move 2" away.

    But, in this case the Krakot's second short skill is to move to a point that would be engaged with the Swiss' new, post-dodge position. So I'm not sure that the ability of dodge to cancel engaged applies here. The Swiss succeeds at his dodge, but in doing so arrives at a point where he becomes engaged with the Krakot. I'm skeptical that he can then use the same dodge to move another 1mm - that would be two moves from one dodge.

    Right, that's why the Krakot with his second move is moving to a position that touches both the Swiss' possible final positions. Or alternatively, if @Tanan and @solkan are correct, then the Krakot moves to a point that touches the Swiss' current position and also blocks the path he declared he would take in the dodge. Either way, if the Swiss fails his dodge then he remains in place and is now engaged with the Krakot. If he passes his dodge, he tries to move to a new position but either (1) is stopped when he hits the Krakot, leaving him engaged, or (2) reaches his destination, but learns when he gets there that the Krakot has arrived at the same moment and they're now engaged.

    I know it seems esoteric, but it actually came up the other day. To be fair, I did forget about assault :-) But assault is so swingy (-3 to cc and can't use berserk) that I think I wouldn't have used it anyway. In that particular game, getting into cc without assault was the tactical preference.
     
  9. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    Engaged is a state in which you are BtB with an oppoennt

    Activation
    This state activates when the trooper is in base contact with an enemy trooper.

    Essentially the state marker is being BtB and you can not be BtB with models without being engaged (it is for this reason if you choose to not be engaged after a successful CC you are moved 1mm away from the null enemy)

    In this case the extra "move" of 1mm is to keep the state "marker" accurate and is not related to the actual movement provided by the dodge. For example in the active turn a dodge only moves you 1mm away from the enemy model as a successful dodge negates the Engaged state.

    In this example it would not matter where the two models end up, if there is a successful Dodge it would mean the two models will be at minimum 1mm apart to cancel the engaged state.

    Cancellation
    • This state is cancelled when the trooper ceases to be in base contact with any enemy troopers.
     
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  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, I'm willing to assume that the 1mm move isn't a Move. But the essential issue is still there. A successful dodge cancels the engaged state, but the units aren't in an engaged state until after the dodge is resolved. All skills in the order are resolved simultaneously. At the time of resolution, there isn't an engaged state to cancel.

    Actually, this helps narrow in on the issue. Let's consider a different, simpler scenario:

    Krakot and Swiss are 9" apart. Krakot moves 4" directly towards the Swiss. Swiss, for some reason decides to declare a dodge 2" directly towards the Krakot.

    Krakot now declares a second move short skill. Krakot can't reach the Swiss' current position (it's 5" away), but can reach the Swiss' target position (it's 3" away). Krakot moves to a spot touching the Swiss' target position.

    If the Swiss passes its dodge, are the units now engaged?

    If your answer is "no, because the dodge cancels the engaged state," then my question is: "how can a dodge cancel a state that didn't exist until the dodge was resolved?"
     
  11. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    The same way you can still dodge out of engagement when an opponent uses the Assault skill, or the way you can respond to an engage ARO with a CC attack even when you are not engaged at the time of the ARO. In both of those cases you are declaring a skill which effects the end result of the full order/aro and exactly what state each of the models is in is determined by the FTF roll.

    edit: also in your given example the dodge would be moving the dodging model into BtB which is strictly forbidden by the dodge rule.
     
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  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    I think you just nailed it.

    The rest of the argument doesn't convince me, but that part does. "Can never be used to enter base to base" in bold face is pretty unambiguous.

    Thanks!
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The other issue is that the Krakot’s movement stops as soon as it touches the Swiss Guard’s current-position base, so it can’t carry on moving to another position.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Question on topic:

    When you declare a skill, all details regarding that skill must be declared. Disengaging is not automatic nor obligatory, so if the Krakot moves near the Swiss can the Swiss really declare they will disengage the Krakot before the Krakot uses their second Short Skill to Move into base contact? I.e. does the Swiss really get a chance to complement their skill declaration when a new situation occurs, or is the Swiss able to hedge their declaration in case it occurs?
     
  15. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
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    Isn't it that if Krakot engages the Swiss, then at this point they are engaged, and only thing that will happen after dodge is separate them, but not move 2"?

    It reminds me of the situation with putting mine, and oponent in second short moves to position that disallowes putting the mine. Situation is changed, and so the outcome. Krakot moved into engaged state, so Moving 2" is forbidded, only disengageing.
     
  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    I suppose the Swiss player could get around this by saying "I dodge, moving back 1mm." The 1mm movement is negligible so there's no downside to declaring it, and it protects him in case the Krakot does decide to try to move into b2b with the second short skill.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not quite an answer to the question. I'm basically after an extremely rules technical thing where the actual movement from the Dodge is not allowed unless you are also able to specify you can disengage. So the Swiss declaring 1mm or 5cm doesn't really make a difference if the movement gets cancelled because they aren't allowed to make moves while Engaged.

    So, question is "can you declare you will Dodge to disengage even if you aren't Engaged?"

    As a small note, while nearly always it won't make a difference, there are potential edge cases where a player might decided "you know what, my model is a LOT more comfortable being Engaged than getting that movement, because now you can't unload on me" and that's not meant to be a choice you should be able to make after skill has been declared.
     
  18. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. If you can't, then the Krakot situation is actually a whole lot simpler. Krakot moves. Swiss declares dodge. Krakot moves into b2b. Swiss can still take his dodge roll, but even if it succeeds he doesn't leave cc because, when he declared dodge, he was not engaged so was not able to declare that he would disengage.

    I think that's incorrect, on the basis that the 2" movement resulting from dodge in the reactive turn is intended to include moving out of the engaged state. But I definitely don't have an extremely technical rules justification for it!
     
  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The cancellation clause for Engaged says "A trooper can also cancel the Engaged state by succeeding in a Dodge Roll, whether it's a Normal or Face to Face Roll."

    You do not have to declare 'disengage', you declare Dodge.

    Now, if you're trying to prevent someone from leading that Krakot/Daturazi across the table by declaring Dodge in response to a Move into CC, I'd have to vote for 'it is supposed to be allowed to lead someone across the table like that'.

    Or do we need to add this to the Unanswered Questions thread as "If you declare a Dodge ARO to someone's Move into CC action, does succeeding at that roll allow you to avoid being Engaged?"
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Rules technically I'd say you can't, for the reason I wrote earlier where all details regarding your skill has to be given when you declare the skill, unless I'm missing something (and the sentence you quoted isn't it). However, this seems so obvious how it should work and I'd be happier if this technicality ended up in an N4 documentation rather than be some sort of disguised urgent issue that needs to be answered ('cause even though it should be easy to FAQ, I don't think it's all that urgent)
     
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