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Challenge: What is the best 3 units in the game?!

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Nisse2MeetU!, Nov 17, 2018.

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  1. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Sukeul?

    I mean, it's indeed very good because it's a mimetic, two-wound, linkable, BS13 trooper, but without access to Sixth Sense and with PH 11/10, ARM 2/0, it just begs to be teamplated to death.
     
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  2. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Sukeul is fine, it's the fucking Symbiomate attached to them that is the problem.
     
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  3. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    How many other Mimetism HMGs come on 2W chassis for 35 points? How many of those can you add a wound to because of symbiomates? How many of those will almost always be towing around a Makaul?

    Sure in a vacuum it's not Mutt-levels of broken, but for what it does within Tohaa it's ridiculous.
     
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  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    It's only ARM 1 though. Soft. But the ignore hits thing make it tougher than like, any other faction's HI, and in doing so totally gimp Tohaa faction design (which is why I think they haven't seen new units for ages, they've designed themselves into a corner with the Symbiomates).
     
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  5. yluvatar

    yluvatar Well-Known Member

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    1 Chasseur minelayer
    2 Chasseur FO
    3 Chasseur adhesive luncher...
     
  6. yluvatar

    yluvatar Well-Known Member

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    1 Chasseur minelayer
    2 Chasseur FO
    3 Chasseur adhesive luncher...
     
  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The sukeul is made better by the fact it's not paying for ARM, which is probably the second most overcosted stat after CC (which the sukeul isn't paying much for either.)

    Look at a Guarda versus a Seraph, for example -- take away Superjump (a 1-2 point skill) and compare their statlines. Is what a Seraph offers really worth 30 more points? Even subtract the CC skills and PH bump. Is ARM7 and a STR worth 20 points? Personally, I don't feel like it.

    There's a reason the Regular's stat line is considered the best among 10 point line troopers.
     
  8. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Of course, if you remove from the start the best the Seraph has to offer ...
    The Seraph point is precisely to have super jump ON a sturdy platform, meaning you have little to fear when using superjump. The seraph can win most face to face when using superjump and can tank a lucky crit. It's size and mobility allows him to track and kill anything that would be hidden to other troops. This is not only a matter of "that skill cost is 2 points", you need to see the whole profile.
     
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  9. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    1) Mutts. Too many tools with too low cost. His irregular + impetuous discount is actually a frigging plus.

    2) Anything with a SMG or a Fireteam-HRL. These two weapons are totally underpriced. They have too many options (SMG) or firepower (HRL) for their cost

    3) Anything from Ariadna. Seriously. Too many camo, too much CC, too much PH, too many skills, too much of every-F-thing.
     
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  10. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    1) Mutts, obvious reasons. They don't unbalance Haqq, and are basically required in Bahram since Bahram has a huge gap when it comes to dealing with TO / HI / TAGs, but in isolation they are incredibly dangerous and useful.

    2) Chasseur (any of the LFT-equipped options). The combination of Marker State, SSL1, and a dangerous DTW makes him one of the few (only?) units in the game that can attack an opponent, in the reactive turn, with literally zero risk to himself. The LFT makes him dangerous against any unit, cheap, TO, or otherwise.

    3) Kuang Shi. 5 point Regular orders are phenomenal. They're also pretty dangerous...those pistols kill everything. Everything.
     
  11. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Hah, I see what you did there.
     
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  12. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    My top 3 in order are:
    Mutts
    Sukuel
    Proxies

    The reason for that is mutts at 5 points are capable of giving a damned if you do/damned if you dont to almost any model in the game. The jammer + emarat + chain rifle leads to serious damage to all models and with smoke grenades + dogged gives the ability to get there.

    Sukuel with backing of the symbio mate is extremely strong with obscene tankyness. 2 effective wounds because symbiomate tanking one entire set of rounds. At bs 13 with mimitism hmg they are deadly in active turn. They let tohaa be the powerhouse that they are.

    Proxies are cheap, nwi or 2w models that have solid firepower with no risk of losing an order. At generally 6 wounds broken into 3 models, 1 or 2 of them generally start up the table so are also order effecient.
     
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  13. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I only picked the Seraph because it also is a BS15 Spitfire and it was an easy comparison.

    Let's flip it around -- I would rather pay 70 points for a 6-4, 3W Guarda with superjump than ever pay for a Seraph. All I'm pointing out is that armor is insanely expensive at those values and only mildly valuable.
     
  14. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    You're not making sense at all ... The guarda de assalto is not 15/10 mvt, he has only 2W instead of 3STR, he does not have fatality lvl 1, he does not have superjump. The 30 pts difference between the both of them is not only superjump or armor ... You're REALLY stretching things to try to make a comparison between the two profiles. The fact is, you have the guarda at 51 pts/2SWC which is your standard HI, not really mobile, rather lightly armoured, and with a unusual auxbot, or the seraph at 82 pts/2SWC, which is a medium to heavy armored very mobile TAG with an auxbot (which sadly miss juperjump). You pick the package you want, but they DONT fill the same role at all. So comparing the both of them is faulty from the very start.

    EDIT: and while armor is indeed rather expensive and not always useful, here you compare an HI with 6 armor on cover to a TAG with 10 armor on cover, which means something that can be reliably killed with just a combi or spitfire (7- and 8- to wound) to something which will be an order sink to kill with the same anti personnal weapons (3- and 4- this is fairly good defense !) and will need more powerful weapons - the same you should be hunting with your seraph to begin with.
     
    #54 Nenyx, Nov 28, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just a bit of theorizing around SymbioMates here.

    A SymbioMate is a virtual 1 wound on the model it attaches to. On the one hand, it can cancel out more than 1 wound, but on the other hand it doesn't work against critical hits which is the primary reason to stock up on wounds in the first place. Let's call it even at "equivalent to 1 wound"

    1 wound costs about 10 points. +/- some. NWI on a 2+ wound model is roughly that.

    Kaeltar costs 21 points in its most basic configuration. It is equipped similar to a 6 pts Caledonia Volunteer that's got roughly Celestial Guard stats (and +1 PH). Call it a 7 points base equipment and adding Chain of Command bumps it up to 12 points. Again, this is a very rough calculation and probably a bit off.

    Add the wounds of the SymbioMates to it and we're up to 32 points. Now, a complication here is that these wounds can be assigned just about anywhere and typically that's something you pay for. To put it bluntly, a Kaeltar CoC should probably cost somewhere in the high 30's, and that would still cause the SymbioMates to potentially ignore a full HRMC burst or several Missile Launchers to the face.
     
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  16. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    His point was that the +4 boost to ARM and the +1 boost to STR aren't worth the ~20 points (actually 18, but there's a BTS boost in there as well) that the Seraph pays for them over the GDA, and he's right. ARM, largely due to the crit mechanic, is a bloat stat that inflates the cost of TAGs (basically anything above ARM 3 actually) without increasing their survivability commensurately.
     
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  17. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    And in my edit that you quoted, i point that in that precise example, the survivability is indeed increased in that this armor makes the seraph rather sturdy versus standard ammunitions. There is little difference between arm1 and arm4, but the difference is far greater between arm 4 and arm 7. In the example i wrote, there is a 50% difference in the chance to wound, which means barring criticals, you need twice more orders to deal the same amount of wounds with antipersonnal weapons. And this is starting to make a noticeable difference. That, plus 3 STR, plus remote presence, makes the Seraph far more difficult to remove than a guarda. Once again, this is a whole package that is to consider ...
     
  18. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    There are 4 conditions to consider for ARM: vs. normal ammo, vs. normal ammo in cover, vs. AP ammo and vs. AP ammo in cover.
    (ignoring K1 and Mono, which basically exist to break rules)
    ARM is a linear, one-for-one increase in survivability in two of those situations (vs. normal ammo and vs. normal ammo in cover) but only increases survivability every 2 increases vs the others, yet the cost increase for ARM (if you interrogate the profiles) starts off at 1 point per +1, then jumps to 2 points per +1; you effectively pay for a full step of survivability vs. AP ammo on every point (after ARM 2) where you only actually gain any in half of the increases. On top of that, the crit mechanic negates ARM entirely.
    Claiming you have to look at the entier package is a GW-esque cop-out, CB don't hand adjust, they use a specific formula for all units making them explicitly comparable.

    Now, the Seraph does get a Silhouette discount, but it's nowhere near enough to account for the downsides it brings through its bloated ARM stat. Oh, and the Seraph doesn't have Fatality 1, that's an ITS-only bonus that you may choose to use in regular games if you want, but isn't in the unit profile.
     
  19. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Of course, that's why MSV-2 is only 1-2 pts / 0 SWC even on the Marut or 360° is only 1-2 pts even on the Maghariba.

    What i claim by "compare the package" is that it's not just "superjump cost only 2 pts" but "this unit has mobility, superjump, high silhouette that allows to vault and gives a better view, lot of structure + 2 inconscious states". If the Seraph want to catch someone, it will catch it. With very few orders. Probably out of cover too, that means, the seraph will nearly always find itself in a favorable shoutout, even vs an ODD/CH:TO troop. Even versus a CH:TO prone troop over some building. Or someone hiding in full cover. Your precious linked HMG that you want to keep for the active turn, it can find it and kill it, and because of the combination of rather high armor and wounds, few things can stop it. The only thing that can really stop it is AHD, and even so, its mobility gives it different routes that your standard TAG won't have.

    This is its role. This is not just a matter of "ARM bloat". Especially on one of the rare ARM7 troop, which is perhaps the best ARM you could want: enough so that non AP ammo are greatly reduced, an odd number so that AP ammo are not that effective (still ARM4 vs AP / ARM7 on cover, multi rifle will only wound on 6-, AP HMG on 8-, this is not that bad considering you need to inflict no less that 5 wounds to remove it permanently).
     
  20. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Not true, in either case and you know it.
    The chassis increases the cost in a perfectly understandable way, you being pig-headed about it does nothing for your credibility.

    All of which it pays for in its profile, and is overcharged as a result thanks to the ARM bloat, the inherant TAG weaknesses over HI and the Silhouette discount not being sufficient to account for it. The Seraph should be 3-5 points cheaper than it is, and should never have had the regular Auxbot (it either should have had a Superjumping one, or none at all).

    It being a good value of ARM doesn't change that it is overcosted and bloat, justify it to yourself all you like, but it pays too much for a stat that doesn't improve its survivability in-line with its cost increase.
     
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