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CC - What's the point of having both a CC Weapon and a Pistol?

Discussion in 'News' started by Lawson, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    (sorry, probably should have posted this in Rules but I can't un-post it)

    I'm a bit confused by the usage of both the Pistol (in CC mode) and the CC Weapon in close combat.

    Any figure who does not have some specialty version (DA CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol, etc.) seems to always carry both of these, and I'm curious about what the point of giving every figure these weapons is (in light of the fact that C1 is meant to be simplified from standard Infinity) since they don't seem to add any appreciable variety or choice to the game.

    From a CC standpoint, there is no choice that must be made between the CC weapon or pistol based on damage type and/or probability. One will ALWAYS be better than the other, based specifically on the unit's PH ability. If PH is better than 11, pick the CC weapon (because its damage scales directly off of CC). If it's less than 11, pick the pistol (since it's fixed at 11). If you have exactly 11 in PH, it doesn't matter which one you use. It seems like standard infinity actually has a distinction in the sense that the Knife (the equivalent of the ever-present CC Weapon in C1) has the "Shock" ability, that causes death upon an attack that reduces the victim to 0HP instead of the standard unconsciousness. This and the -1PH damage rating (though it functionally just changes which figures you'd consider using it with) means that there's at least an appreciable trade-off between the two weapons. Shock as a concept is incredibly simple to understand, especially compared to some other stuff that was left in C1, so the question is, why remove it if the end result is just the clutter of having CC Weapon and Pistol both as CC weapons but with no real distinction between them?

    This brings up another odd issue related to the pistols utility (or lack thereof) as a BS weapon. The pistol is almost always a worse weapon than pretty much anything that a figure is carrying. Even with the +3 to BS within 8" the vast majority of weapons are at least equal to this in ability. Offensively, even if you were at short range with a weapon like an HMG that has a penalty, you'd still likely pick that over the pistol to attack with due to its higher rate of fire and higher damage output. Maybe if you were firing defensively and your Burst value was not an option there are some rare situations where you might use a pistol... but again, if you're looking for things to get rid of to simplify C1 over standard infinity, why keep something like this that's a major corner-case for both CC and BS attacks? Is there something about the pistol that I'm missing? Does standard Infinity have situations where your primary weapon can be removed and the pistol becomes a legitimate backup, hence the inclusion as a matter of habit in C1 despite the lack of such a situation?

    I am not arguing that the pistol is COMPLETELY useless, just that its utility is so limited that it is a weird choice to keep in a slimmed down version of the game when the additional stat-lines don't really appear to be worth the choice involved.
     
    #1 Lawson, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  2. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Range bands are fairly important. You are right that high B weapons may still outperform a B2 pistol despite a bad rangeband, but in the reactive turn this advantage is neutered for everything that isnt Neurokinetics or Total Reaction.
    Take this as an example:

    HSIEN HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61)

    In your reactive turn, an enemy approaches you within 8". This leaves you with the following options:

    - Dodge on PH 14
    - Shoot back with Nanopulser, likely eating a hit yourself
    - Shoot back with you HMG at BS 11
    - Shoot back with your Pistol at BS 17

    If you decide to shoot back and don't want / can't afford to eat a hit, the pistol is the superior choice vs the HMG.


    Depending on the weapon loadout and the nature of the unit, having a pistol can be very useful even in your active turn.
    Here's an example:

    [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    In your active turn, you move into LOF of an enemy tropper within 8". At this point the enemy has to decide what to do. Considering (and expecting) you will probably attack with the Chain Rifle, they likely decide to dodge. Depending on their PH, they may have a good change of outright ignoring your attack with just a normal roll.

    Due to the way the order sequence is structured, you can react to their decision to dodge and attack with your pistol instead to make it a FTF roll, putting their one die (dodge) vs your two dice (pistol is B2), decreasing their chance of successfully dodging your attack.

    Now, you can really only pull this "trick" off once, since your opponent will remember Kuang Shi having pistols as well. In subsequent encounters, again, depending on their PH, your opponent will often be forced to just shoot back, netting you a free hit with your Chain Rifle or the option of outshooting him with an additional die on your pistol.
     
    #2 Knauf, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    that has to be checked unit by unit. A warband with chain might use the pistol to shot an specialist going for an objective outside chain range, instead of wanting to put smoke, just an example
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Bear in mind that CodeOne is simplified from N4 by removing entire rules or items from the game, not by removing them from some units and not from others! So you'd either be looking at removing all standard Pistols or removing all standard CCWs.

    In addition to what Knauf has said about the reactive turn (which is actually the main time you want to use a Pistol), within 8" a Pistol in the active turn is better almost all support weapons other than an HMG or Spitfire, and even the HMG is only about even unless the target has high ARM.

    For example if you're equipped with a MULTI Sniper Rifle or (even worse!) a Missile Launcher, the Pistol has equal or better Burst, and effectively +6 BS.

    If we take a pair of basic Fusiliers in cover, using a Pistol to attack with compared to a Missile Launcher halves the chance of the Pistol-user taking damage and doubles the chance of inflicting damage.
    Pistol vs Combi Rifle (reactive trooper has about twice the chance to wound as the active trooper)
    ML vs Combi Rifle (reactive trooper has about half the chance to wound as the active trooper)

    For the MULTI Sniper it's not as stark a difference as that, but the Pistol is still on much better odds.
     
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  5. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    I think that's legitimately what I'm asking - sorry I added the part about the Pistol as a BS, as that was more of a subset of my real question. The BS factor seemed to be the one everyone responded to. And yes, I do understand that pistols have some utility as BS weapons for figures that are, say, not armed with a Combi. Any amount of nuance the game adds is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm just saying that if C1 was looking to simplify, it seems like an odd choice to hold onto both pistols and CC weapons... especially in light of the lack of meaningful choice between which to use in melee.

    Anyone care to address the melee part of the question? It seems to me like they should have just kept Shock as a quality of the CC Weapon, because at least then it's not necessarily an automatic choice about whether to do the CC or Pistol purely based on the figure's PH.

    I am coming to all this more from a game-design angle and trying to understand what the motivation was to change certain rules in C1 vs others, and what has the most impact, vs purely the idea that yes, using the pistol IS technically a choice.
     
    #5 Lawson, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Because there are CC-oriented Troopers that need the CCW to make use of their higher PH, and Martial Arts PH/Damage MODs.

    Take away the CCWs and a unit like the Caliban is suddenly dropping from Damage 15 (PH13, +2 for Martial Arts Level 3) to Damage 11.
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's also to maintain some parity with N4, where everyone usually has at least pistol and knife, setting expectations for what the average profile has access to, even though they're not necessarily always useful in C1.
     
    #7 colbrook, Aug 11, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  8. Rot_Sechs

    Rot_Sechs Active Member

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    1) Pistols and ccw also tend to be freebies for units pointswise. Its nice for the fluff that they have access to personal defence weapons. And cb does tend to like fluffing up profils which might feel unneeded for some competetive users.

    2) pistols fixed dmg means that they are worse then ccws when it comes to cc gang up and units like what ijw posted

    3) there are missions and skills in n3 which might provide you with another pistol. That means twin mod gets applied in active so suddenly your chainrilfe dood hast b3 active weapon.

    4) some missions in n3 need you to have a pistol to get access to mission equipment that is needed to finish mission. Same might apply to campaignbooks.

    5) bs+3 8" aren't standard issue. More profils that benifit from it than dont should exist in n3. C1 is just the big 4 duking it out so combis water it down a bit.

    Personally i think its much more likly somebody likes c1 and starts playing old its/campaign missions first. Then gets into n3/n4 advanced rules. So they would need pistols in their profiles to beable to play those missions.

    Little side anecdot: new player plays a no-midfield tak vs intermidiate cha. Cha throws sphinx at him. Wants to show no mercy, "be the cool pro" and eat enemy link. Newbie gets 4+ units to aro including linkteam. Gets the sphinx killed thanks to 7! Hits with pistols. All thanks to the +3 he had making the pistols still relevant in contrast to the rifles or what ever primitiv boomsticks tak uses ^^
     
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  9. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the in-depth response - it is especially appreciated because of the long history of Infinity that I'm not privy to and my desire to sort-of reverse engineer a better understanding of CodeOne's systems based on the history of the game. I do have a question specifically about your point-2 above. I understand that units that get a Martial Arts buff to PH will benefit from bonus damage to a PH-based CC weapon vs a fixed damage Pistol, but your usage of the phrase CC gang up implies that there is a PH damage bonus for multiple units in CC as well, which I don't see in the C1 rules as far as I can tell. I know that there is a +1 to burst per supporting troop also engaged with the target, but I assumed this applied to any weapon used in CC, including the pistol. Is the +1B per additional supporting troop in CC attacks only applied when attacking with a CC weapon and not a pistol? Or is there additional +PH bonus damage that exists in N3 for supporting troops that maybe doesn't exist in C1?
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    That's an N3 thing, and is specific to having multiple Troopers acting at once, for example a Fireteam or Coordinated Order.

    The closest equivalent in CodeOne is Peripheral (Servant) which only gives a +1 Burst bonus (it also gave a +1 PH bonus in N3).
     
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  11. Rot_Sechs

    Rot_Sechs Active Member

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    Knigths in links are scary because they could theoreticly get a burst 5 cc+9 ph+4 attack off with da/exp weapons only missing out on nbw mods. This made them perfect for killing static mission objectives. Best i ever pulled of was 3 hits with a berserking exp ccw and near 20 dmg. My Opponent didnt even roll because of the epicness i went through to get there ^^.

    While thats a fun story its rare and no pistol or knife was involved. However i did tbe same thing with snychronized order sergeants and auxilia to accomplish the cc mission card when it was ruled that the enemy had to be alive when going for the kill. The ph bonus may sound marginal but in an f2f with 2v1 dice you have to take every edge you can get, to make a hit count. Also makes for a nice story. "Knifed an impersonater with r2-auxbro. Puny aliens"
     
  12. Rot_Sechs

    Rot_Sechs Active Member

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    Ups. So yeah n3 things.... sorry forgot the forum section. But i think tha equipment which might be relevant in n4 should be on a c1 profile. Even more so for fluff relevant euqip.
     
  13. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    This would contradict the entire purpose of C1 as a simplified ruleset.
     
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  14. Rot_Sechs

    Rot_Sechs Active Member

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    Not really. C1 is a really easy ruleset overall and a much better starting point then old 2 player boxes. The pistols dont over complicate things as it is still pretty obvious which weapon hits better. Bigger numbers > wins you the f2f. Sometimes winning that f2f is all you need in infinity to continue your way up the board. If it leads to more engaged newbs to ask questions about n4 or vets being able to tell funny warstorys its exactly the right thing to add to the profiles.

    Dont like the inclusion of remdriver in the booklet. A skill that is still not present on c1 models.
     
  15. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    I’m going to assume you didn’t notice your contradiction there.
    You just proved my point though.
     
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  16. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Still wandering through the Night

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    RemDriver is obviously there as a future-proofing rule.
    If the OSS stuff from Coldfront & beyond is going to be aleph's C1 starter, it'll have the Apsara in the kit. It also let's them add a model that can do that to another army. Both Combined Army or the upcoming Corregidor revamp could easily justify it.
     
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  17. Rot_Sechs

    Rot_Sechs Active Member

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    Not really. Remdriver is currently not represented and the current annoucements were ambigous about any further c1 releases. Yes ppl like to claim faction x coming soon tm but its mostlikly not gonna happen this year or early next year. August 2021 at best. I get the inclusion in the printed material though. Just wanted to show an atm unessesseray rule.

    Meanwhile pistols dont overcomplicate things. I have run ~25 beginner games for 6-10 ppl of the old sets. Pistol and knife where present on those models too. Never were a problem. Ppl printing army lists with armyapp or netlisting "beginner lists" with complicated/unknown skills were. C1 kills both of those problems dead for good.
     
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  18. Rot_Sechs

    Rot_Sechs Active Member

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    And to help post opener i have gone the extra mile and took a look at every c1 pano model to show you that there is only 3 models in c1 pano that wouldn't benefit from the pistol in any profile. The list is written: unit name / profiles that benefit for the bs+3 in 8" / cc dmg of the unit with its pistol compared to its ccweapon (as cc roll stay the same for both only dmg is relevant):
    1) fusi/ ml, hmg, msr/ +1
    2) machinist/ -/ +1
    3) nokken/ spit / +1
    4) doc / -/ +1
    5) akal / spit/ ==
    6) docbro / -/ == but has mono ccw
    7) nisse / hmg, msr/ -1
    8) troll / -/ -4 because of ma and da ccw
    9) varg / mark, spit/ =
    10) aquila /mark, hmg/ -3
    11) barkbark /ml, mk12/ heavy pistol dm 14 so +1
    12) koj / combi, ml, spit/ -1 and da ccw
    13) orc/ hmg/ -3
    14) swiss/ hmg/ -1 and ap ccw
    15) croc / msr/ -1
    16) ninja/ mark, msr/ -3 because of ma on ccw
    17) locust /mark / -1
    18) liang /-/ -5 because of ma and has da ccw

    So only 18) and 8) dont benefit from a pistol at all. But they are cc specialists and might need pistols for mission unlocks. 6) docbro with its mono ccw wants to be cc specialist but isnt in c1. Its still a mono ccw the pistol competes against so he also wouldnt need one.

    Yes some of these profils have a negitve dmg listed and would have a higher dmg bs weapon or higher burst bs weapon. However if you have to aro winning the f2f is usually more important. Its only 1 of your dice in however many your opponent can muster and forcing him to spend more orders can be more valuable then attempting an aro kill.
     
  19. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Yes, really.
     
  20. Rot_Sechs

    Rot_Sechs Active Member

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    I have given a complete faction rundown. It shows that there is value in pistol/ccw setup for most units. It also shows that its removal of either option would heavly punish some units. Challenge that or bring something new to the discussion please.
     
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