I've asked many people and got different answers with different reasoning, all of which sounded solid, so I figured it was time to go to the forums. If a unit has the "CC Attack (-6)" rule, how does that work mechanically? Does it inflict a -6 penalty when the unit with the skill declares CC Attack, or does it inflict a -6 penalty when targeted by an enemy declaring CC Attack? I've found no clear guidance in the rules other than negative penalties affect the enemy, it doesn't say when/how those negative penalties are triggered. From what I have found, it seems that skills which penalize the opponent when using a relevant skill tend to have their own name, like how "Mimetism (-6)" works, instead of being written as "BS Attack (-6)". Similarly, skills which activate only when the bearer uses them, tend to be written with the skill name, such as "BS Attack (+1B)" or "Surprise Attack (-3)", both of which require the owner of the skill to declare the use of the skill associated. So... any official ruling on how CC Attack (-6) would be triggered? Is there something I've missed in the rules? UPDATE: Partially Answered So IWJ has clarified that CC Attack (-6) means a -6 mod is caused by the model with the skill "CC Attack (-6)" declares a CC Attack (not when they're the target of CC Attack), but we still are missing information on which enemies it applies to, and if it is only for F2F or any skill declared by the target of CC Attack (-6). Comparing it to other skills, it is missing a lot of instruction around targeting and F2F rolls: Mimetism (-6): Applies a -6 mod to the enemy. Type? Automatic Skill When? Mod applied when enemies declare BS Attack and Discover against owner. F2F Required? No Applied to Target? No Surprise Attack (-6): Applies a -6 mod to to the enemy. Type? Automatic Skill When? Mod applied when owner declares BS Attack. F2F Required? No Applied to Target? Yes Martial Arts (L2): Applies a -3 mod to the enemy. Type? Automatic Skill When? Mod applied when owner declares CC Attack. F2F Required? Yes Applied to Target? Yes CC Attack (-6): Applies a -6 mod to the enemy. Type? Short Skill/ARO When? Mod applied when owner declares CC Attack. F2F Required? Unknown. Applied to Target? Unknown. The F2F question is a big one for CC Attack (-6). If F2F is required, then it wouldn't apply to an enemy using Berserk, or declaring Reset. If no F2F is required, then it will help defend against Berserk. Knowing if it only applies to the Target is also important when there are multiple AROs and coordinated orders. Current assumption is that the -6 mod only applies to the target of the CC Attack, but no supporting rules have been found yet. Sometimes negative mods affect all enemies when used (like Mimetism), sometimes only the target of the ability (like Surprise Attack).
The rules for Modifiers state that an opponent suffers the MOD when interacting with the unit using the skill named and with that skill MOD. So, if your unit has that rule and get attacked in CC, the opponent will suffer the MOD if and only if your unit declares CC Attack - not if they declare Dodge. https://infinitythewiki.com/Skills_and_Equipment_in_Infinity
Can you quote the part of the rule you're referencing? I don't see anything like that mentioned on the page you listed. You might be talking about this bit: "The value of an Attribute, Burst, Damage, Ammunition, number of uses... in round brackets next to a Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment will be used, applying its effects if necessary, only when using that Special Skill, Weapon or Equipment." Though that sentence is only talking about those extra values, set burst, damage and ammo, like "Dodge (PH=11)" and not the +/- modifiers in the previous section.
Emphasis crudely added by me. The -6 in brackets applies to the opponent when the trooper uses the Skill/equipment/weapon it's attached to.
https://infinitythewiki.com/Skills_and_Equipment_in_Infinity A negative MOD (-) in round brackets next to a Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment will be applied only to enemies The value of an Attribute, Burst, Damage, Ammunition, number of uses... in round brackets next to a Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment will be used, applying its effects if necessary, only when using that Special Skill, Weapon or Equipment. ///// Now, there is a difference between Penthesilea's Melee Attack -6 skill, and the Tsyklon Sputnik's CC PARA weapon -6. Penny, since states in her profile the skill, applies a -6 to all CC rolls an enemy model tries to use against her, as long as she declares CC attack regardless of what she is doing (dodge, hit with the monofilament sword, or shoot a gun to the face). The Tsyklon, however, needs to use the melee weapon to apply the -6 to the enemy's attacking roll (and you can give him a melee upgrade with a RemDriver... or use the 9pts Moderators to taser enemies into submission with their native melee 18 and the very same PARA -6 weapons).
@xagroth That's what I thought too, but @ijw has given the opposite ruling, so Penny needs to declare CC Attack, and gives the enemy -6, regardless of what they declare.
Please see the previous posts in the thread. You MUST be using the Skill/Equipment/Weapon to apply the MOD. So the -6 for the PARA CCW only applies if the Tsyklon is using the CCW, and the -6 for Penny's CC Attack (-6) only applies if she is using CC Attack.
That's how all negative mods work, otherwise Mimetism(-6) would give a penalty to your opponents Mimetism, which would be weird.
Mimetism is an automatic skill that affects the enemy BS, it has a lot more instruction on how to apply it's negative mod, and doesn't require the bearer to declare any specific skill to activate it, which is why it's different than "BS Attack (-3)", hence the confusion when a lot of players think "CC Attack (-6)" means if the enemy declares CC Attack they're at -6, not when the bearer declare CC Attack. @ijw another bit that's unclear is if only the target of the CC Attack is at -6. So if Penny moved into melee with two models, or another model shoots her as she moves into combat, are all the enemies at -6 if she declares CC Attack? As far as I can tell RAW they would be penalized (she's declaring the skill, which seems to be the only requirement), but I'm unsure if that is the intention of the rule. This is also super relevant to models with Para CCW (-3/6) moving into combat and attacking someone.
I think for some folks the confusion stems from the ambiguously missing wording in this sentence: "The value of an Attribute, Burst, Damage, Ammunition, number of uses... in round brackets next to a Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment will be used, applying its effects if necessary, only when ((IDENTITY?)) using that Special Skill, Weapon or Equipment." Logically the identity is the owner of the skill/weapon/equipment with the special notation attached...except that in some cases it isn’t. For instance, there’s a way to read this thread that interprets TAGs as never applying their Gizmokit (PH=X) because they aren’t the owner or user of the Gizmokit. (I’m not saying I think that’s the case.)
Gizmokit does clarify this exception in it's rules: If a Trooper lists GizmoKit in their Unit Profile with a PH value between brackets, the Trooper will use this PH value when a GizmoKit is used on them.
True! The original wording is still unnecessarily open, though, or the OP question wouldn’t have come up in the first place, and from a player standpoint it’s easy to think “oh, there’s at least one exception to the default behavior, maybe there’s another I’m forgetting.” Let’s put it another way. If the rules being discussed in this thread read as follows, would they be clearer? A negative MOD [-] in round brackets next to a Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment will be applied only to enemies when the owner uses that Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment. The value of an Attribute, Burst, Damage, Ammunition, number of uses... in round brackets next to a Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment will be used, applying its effects if necessary, only when the owner uses that Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment. Rather than leaving players to puzzle out anything, just be explicit. A few extra words in key places won’t make the text unreadable.
Yeah, there is a lot of ambiguity on exactly when different types of modifiers are applied. Some are when the skill is activated by the owner, like "CC Attack (-6)", while others are based on the enemy doing something, like "Mimetism (-6)". I think the rules for modifiers were over-simplified to try to account for everything, but then lacks direction and can be counter-intuitive at times. Now there's the whole other question on what happens to enemies that aren't the target of the CC Attack. If Penny declares CC Attack against one model, and it shot by another, does that other model suffer the -6? It seems to be the case since she declared CC Attack, but that might be an unintended side effect rather than what was intended when writing the rule.
Right, I had made a direct translation from N3's Ikhol (being happy because it now would apply to STR units...), which allowed to dodge imposing the malus to the enemy... Since it seems all of the units with the CC Attack (-x) have better melee than PH, I'd say it's a buff (bigger for high PH/monofilament troops, smaller for those with basic guns and melee weapons).
So following this could the Kriza Borac not been given something like (BS Attack -3) instead of memetism? Or does that cause other repercussions I'm not considering.
Yes, they certainly could have, and it would word similar to the old full auto 1, which means that if the Kriza did a BS attack, other opposed rolls such as dodge, hack, CC, etc., would all suffer a negative 3 modifer, which would cause much gnashing of teeth. Similarly BS-3 would not be ignored by visors, while mimitism is.
