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Can we counter the Brothers?

Discussion in 'Chemical Brothers' started by Roadrunner7431, Apr 18, 2019.

  1. Roadrunner7431

    Roadrunner7431 Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    In my opinion there has never been an expansion quite like this that changes the whole complexion of the game. Bachman inoculates you with a State and imposes Poison to boot! How do we counter? I am rethinking Parvati with her Reset action and Reset card. Laxmee's Fairy Dust is now a whole lot more useful and before now I never took her Team Reset Card. If Gata and Eclypse can get close enough to Dazzle Bachman or placing Smoke on him to force him to move to gain LOS might work. Would Eclypse' Polarization Card force a flip of the States that he is carrying so that when he inoculates an enemy those States are already on the blue side? The Ranged characters might shoot him from afar.
     
  2. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    Well yes, but specially after Human Fate these are practically must-include in my rosters.
    Can't :S:dazzle Bachmann, but Smoke might work. Still, :S:Dazzle really HURTS Hammerhead. Specially after Bachmann overcharge him.
    No. When you use Bachmann abilities you remove a state and then impose it on a target. So you are always imposing them red side up.
    It doesn't matter if you either shoot him from afar or slice him upclose. He's going to use his :1: to :D:poison you back before dying. Sure you could use Parvati to Akimbo him and then reset yourself, but I suggest using a Green ability, like Mendoza's :A:fire, or Lunah's supressive fire, or Queen Koorie's Bounce, or just Dart's nanoroids to directly do :4:damage without getting poison back. And I'm probably missing some others. Murtair might be a fun one, since you get :E:faster with the damage.

    PS: Keep in mind that if you frag Bachmann, he comes back with a -2:E: state that he can impose on your team, so careful on killing Bachmann.
     
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  3. Roadrunner7431

    Roadrunner7431 Well-Known Member
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    @treiral Thanks for the detailed reply. I completely forgot that :S: is useless against Bachmann and that he just might turn around and impose it back on you. I missed the special early release of the Brothers but I got a notice from my store that they should have them soon. They are currently available on TTS. I think they are huge game changers!
     
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  4. Roadrunner7431

    Roadrunner7431 Well-Known Member
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    :G: State prevents acquiring movement points but doe not modify :U: per se. Am I correct in concluding that Bachmann is not impeded by :G:?
     
  5. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    I'm very happy we are finally doing something with the :D:poison tokens. I thought there were way too many in core just for Gata's ability, and then Dart added some value to it by using her switch. But the brothers are exactly what I was praying for! I managed to grab one of the preorders (and hExX3r's NO alt art), but they aren't sending them out until next week.

    Correct!
     
  6. Chikahiro

    Chikahiro Well-Known Member

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    Correct. So, if you wanted to reduce his movement then you'd have to use something that imposed a -like Suppressive Fire with Major Lunah.

    I'd note that just because you can pass on the one of the few States that can affect him, doesn't mean you'll have a worthwhile opportunity.

    How would Silence impact him? Pros and cons of what you can silence?
     
  7. krotos

    krotos Well-Known Member
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    You can impose 2 silences on Bachman (both green actions) so he will be pretty useless.
     
  8. Stompburger

    Stompburger Member

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    Oh, so Bachman can have multiple Silence tokens because of his passive - that is actually a bit of a weakness in that case, huh? And he could theoretically have more than one -2:U: too, right?

    Edit - if that's the case, that makes Oberon a pretty hard counter to him.
     
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  9. Chikahiro

    Chikahiro Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Looking at it, Flux Capacitor would figure in that way.

    Additionally, since he can have a bazillion states on him? While he might not be affected by them, he still has them. Does that mean:G:, :H:, etc., might still effect him even if he can still move, attack enemies other than who taunted him, etc. See Valkyrie and Senor Massacre, for instance. Likewise, :J: affects enemies attacking him not so much him personally, no? Also means he can't benefit from :O: I would think.
     
  10. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    He's easily countered by just killing him. Yes he can put a poison on you but he's an easy frag point for most characters. Hell, even a contender with some added dice cards can be a mortal threat. To play the states game against hin just plays his game. It's basically Oberon to silence or anyone to just shank/shoot him really
     
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  11. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    It's weirdly phrased, but you are saying that while those states do not affect him, he still has those states and so others characters that benefit from characters with those states, like Valkyrie and Sr. Massacre, might still get their additional :-::,: dice.

    I believe they won't, sadly. Reading both Valkyrie and Sr. Massacre they say they gain the die if the target is affected by the states. This is going to get complicated so bear with me.

    We know there is a difference between having a state token and having a certain state. This is why having a :H:taunted state on its blue side means you are not :H:taunted.

    Now, Valkyrie (and Sr. Massacre) ability reads like this:
    Floomby 19-04-2019 133612.png
    The way it's phrased means the enemy must be affected by the :G:immobilized state, not just holding a state token.
    And since Bachmann isn't affected by them, it means Valkyrie won't get to trigger her Benediction of Freyja.

    And yeah, he can't benefit from :O:Hidden either.

    As I said above, sure you can kill him. But you are getting :D:poisoned now, and he's going to impose the -2:E: on you when he comes back from the bench. Question is, are you ready for that?
     
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  12. Roadrunner7431

    Roadrunner7431 Well-Known Member
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    "Oh Brother!" Bachmann will cause us to sharpen our understanding of States. I think that this is sorely needed but will be difficult at first, kind of like trying to learn a second language.
     
  13. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Well it's not necessarily that clear cut, yeah you're gonna take a poison, but whatever, it's a point of damage, this is aristeia, you're expecting it.
    He has to be able to move into range of you to ditch that state and then he has to succeed at that roll and there might be other stuff he needs to do on his team or for the game objectives instead too.
    It's certainly something he can do, but it's not every game or scenario where he can respawn and be immediately in range of someone or have something more neccesary to do (like boost his bro or clear something important off someone else)
     
  14. Chikahiro

    Chikahiro Well-Known Member

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    So, with that reading, not only can he not benefit from Hidden, I'm thinking he can't benefit from :K:Focused either (Fairy Dust aside)?

    https://aristeiathegame.com/wiki/article/83-focused
    That being said: I half wonder if you've got Oberon and Bachmann on the same team? Could you Silence Immunize on him intentionally to allow him to receive benefits of Hidden? I'm not saying this would be super practical, but if the other team isn't throwing around a lot of states, has a lot of ranged attacks, etc? Its not a horrible idea. Just highly situational. For instance, it'd offer some protection from Dart's Dendroids and Major Lunah all around (nevermind Wild Bill). Obviously, he'd have to be fairly clear of states at the time (Poison and Burning would be very bad to have on him!), but...

    That's probably more theorycrafting than actual, practical thought, but its still fun :p
     
  15. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    Yeah, he can't benefit from :K:focused either (fairy dust aside), and while I think you are correct in those ideas, I see some potential in keeping Eclypse close and hand him a couple :O:hidden states to send in range later on. I always love being able to attack and not receive any damage in return.
     
  16. Chikahiro

    Chikahiro Well-Known Member

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    Bachmann the Gopher. Likewise, loading him up with Focus would be good too.

    I think that’s a big reason to keep him alive: if he’s a goodie FedEx, you’re waiting his actions and the sender’s actions by letting him get killed. As is, the idea of him doing that changes how I see him considerably.
     
  17. Roadrunner7431

    Roadrunner7431 Well-Known Member
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    What happens to a Dazzled Hammerhead? Since his attack requires LOS and has minimum range of 2, does Dazzling him shut down his Attack because Dazzle limits range to 0-1? Also it came up at minute 17:00 of Juan Lara's recent game on Ecos del Hexadome that his opponent wanted to use Hammerhead to target a Marked Kosmo two spaces away while Dazzled. It seems that Juan let him do so but I would say that Dazzled limits range to 0-1 so that even though Marked does not require LOS it does not somehow extend the range of characters that wish to target a Marked enemy. Please help.
     
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  18. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    Yep.
    He got it right.
    :S:Dazzle says that you can't draw LoS beyond range :L:0-1. It doesn't turn your range into something else. So your range is still what it is, and since you don't need LoS to target a :J:Marked character, Hammerhead can use Battering Ram against Kozmo.
     
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  19. Roadrunner7431

    Roadrunner7431 Well-Known Member
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    I saw Juan Lara use Kozmo to put Smoke on Obstacles near a scoring zone in an effort to prevent Hammerhead from using Battering Ram to attack an Obstacle in order to score.
     
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  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Smoke certainly seems to be a solid answer.