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Can Someone explain to me why Suryats are bad?

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by DaRedOne, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. Geodron

    Geodron Well-Known Member

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    That sounds like something I would say if I wanted to make a random person happy but had no actual answer to give and knew shrugging isn't what I'm being paid for.
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup. Now, why the heck Batroid TAGs have such low ph is mystifying. I get the feeling they were meant to be HI and the sculptor went a bit crazy with them.
     
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  3. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Btw... When are we getting a freaking Vulkan Shotgun Suryat model?
     
  4. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    I thought this when I saw the Hollow Men render with *4* models. Like Suryats should have been. Grrrrr!
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Nope. The profile existed before the concept art, let alone the sculpt. They have low PH because they're cheap.
     
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  6. Lesh'

    Lesh' MAFter of Apes
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    well, after seeing an update to Raicho profile, small buff to Suryat's PH doesn't seem so impossible anymore.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Why would you want to pay 15 points more for a Suryat Link for PH 14? That's how much that costs right now, come on guys.

    It's not a Suryats vs Brigadas issue, they're both terrible Links. A Magister or GRRRL Link outperforms both for 50 points less.
    Fixing that is a pretty serious problem.

    I actually like single Sogorat/Suryat HMGs for being immune to Isolation. The Link simply needs a way to be cost effective.
     
  8. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    The thing is, for their points cost, the Suryats should have ph 14. It's odd that the faction that has 'higher than average ph' as one of their things has a HI that actually has lower than average PH now that every baseline HI (ORCs, Brigada, Janissaries, Shang Ji) also has PH14. It feels like everyone but Suryats got that little buff without a points increase. It just feels like a slight of the design team on this specific case.

    I still like the Suryats, but most of the time I'm using either a HRL in a haris with Kornak or an HMG/Multi-Rifle solo lieutenant. But then again, last time I even played MAF was on January. I've been Bakunining all over the place recently.
     
  9. Geodron

    Geodron Well-Known Member

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    I think there are probably plenty of examples that show CB eyeballs points costs more than there is a hard formula. So Suryats getting PH14 shouldn't increase their points in any way.

    Personally I think their is a chance that CB moving forward is going to do less generic units found in every faction and tweak them more to make them each slightly more unique. Like the Raicho having a generic TAG profile and a unique TAG profile.
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    I don't know what to tell you, point formula treats basic HI Links like shit and the Morat rule is pretty damn expensive on top so that doesn't help either.
    But no, Suryats get exactly what the sum of their parts currently accounts for (which aint great 100% agreed there). Morats could actually be a good place to put some Frenzy. If Knights and Myrmidions are mostly hotheads that start screaming for blood after drawing it, why not Zoidber....Suryats?

    May I guess you're familiar how 40k and Warmahordes handles that issue? Worry not, Infinity actually has that stupid formula thing (as confirmed by CB), it's been aging badly and the results it puts out can be pretty terrible. We're also in the dark about the finer parts of it.
    But I'm pretty sure @Magonus has a few nice conspiracy theories to share about the elaborate lie that is the points formula.
     
  11. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Suryats should have a native (Suryat) or linkable (Raktorak) Paramedic - alongside the Ph increase. Morats are, at least so far as I can see, the faction/sectorial with the highest saturation of Parameds - due to no racial Doctor option. It also further emphasises the "Unit before Self" attitude.
     
  12. Geodron

    Geodron Well-Known Member

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    @Teslarod I know there is a points formula but CB seems to game it if it doesn't create the results they want like what we are seeing with the new sectorials units this year.

    I actually think I would prefer Morats to not have doctors at all with the Medtech being the option if you feel you need one. Morat should become an actual rule as opposed to a nested one. Morat should be like a worse form of regeneration allowing a morat to stand back up and keep fighting. Then just put religious and veteran on the profile.

    Suryats I am fine with having no real specialists if the rest of the list had better access to them. If I had a choice I'd give Suryats I think fatality L1.
     
  13. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Because Suryats are specifically the most level headed and professional of the morat veteran soldiery. It's the lore. Only daturazi go around running like maniacs and screaming at people.

    I really think the 'it's the formula' excuse just means we need to change the formula, really. PH14 on Suryats isn't a big deal.
     
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  14. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

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    A PH14 bump for Suryats would be the final nail in the coffin for Sogarats ever seeing the table for most players. Sogarats are already a unit people take out of love, not practicality.

    I would say, give Suryats PH14, Sogarats get either Full Auto L2 or Fatality L2 to bring them back to what they should be.
     
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  15. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Sogarats are roadblocks, they're not attack pieces (and I am one of those that takes them for love). Honestly I'd not like a Sog with full auto... Actually, let me take a moment, and write a long rant on Morats and full auto:

    I don't want morats to get this skill. Really, I don't. With the exception of the Raicho, which already got a really good if completely out of left field update, I don't think any morat would benefit from full auto as anything other than "it's a really nice and kinda OP" skill. And I don't want 'Really nice and kinda OP' stuff, I want 'fun to play and interesting while matching the lore' stuff.

    Full auto represents the model going through more ammo faster and recklessly. Raichos do that, no one else in MAF does. And Raichos aren't even in the actual Ugarat military, they're just big game hunters in armored suits. Everyone else in MAF is either a professional soldier(Kurgats, Vanguards, Rodoks, Yaogats, Suryats, Sogarats) or an up and coming warrior that needs/wants to prove their worth to their bizarre, extremely aggressive and violent society that venerates the very idea of violence as a means of any kind of advance (Daturazi, Rasyat, Rodoks again). These guys aren't maniacs, they're not irrational. On the contrary, they're very, very rational and 'logical' in their violence, it's bizarre alien logic but there is a logic. So don't give me Fury, don't give me full auto, don't give me berzerk, don't give me skills that represent a model lashing out, because morats shouldn't be lashing out.

    Sogarats are bulky storm troopers, they're massive shock attack forces that bludgeon the enemy through sheer power and armor and stupidly big guns. Sogarats should have skills that represent their ability to really go in first and lead by example. I'd like to see them get Marksmanship because they're supposed to be crack shots, or I'd like to see them get natural born warrior to show that they're seasoned fighters. Hell, I'd love to see an autoshotgun as a new Burst 3-4 shotgun that could be given to sogarats to show how they are geared for up and close assaults. In fact, think about how much more cool that would be.

    If anything, I'd like to see more automedikits and medjectors in MAF, I'd like to see something to make them less prone to be hacked, something that would make it harder for them to be bricked by a 25 points jerk with a smartphone. Morats should be stiff, unyielding, inexorable monsters that trundle forward taking ungodly amounts of firepower from the enemy and just refusing to die. I'd like to see more NWI on them, more stuff that keeps them going on sheer willpower and stubbornness.

    I get that people prefer points efficiency over cool stuff. But I'd rather have something unique than ape something that already exists. Rant over,
     
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  16. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    NWI sounds a good for fluff.
     
  17. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

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    @DaRedOne I agree, Morats should be the kings of command and control. But is seems lately that the only thing CB is handing out is Full Auto. Advanced Command, Inspiring Leadership, Number 2(every core should have this available), and more Strategos should all be scattered around the Morats, but they aren't.

    As for Sogarats, they should be as scary and effective as the new Raicho, not a 56/57 point roadblock. Sogarats are THE pinnacle of the Morat aspiration for war, the fact they are relegated to speed bump status is just a travesty.
     
  18. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    CB isn't handing out Full Auto. There's one profile in the game with that skill. I agree that Sogs need a buff, but I would rather it not be Full Auto.

    I believe that Morats will remain stagnant for a year or so until CB actually looks at the sectorial again, so I will not lose my sleep over buffs or nerfs. However, I do hope that when they eventually look into MAF we get a nice redesign that brings interesting stuff rather than we just getting a skill that already exists so we can have our own Krizat Morafs.
     
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  19. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    So both of you want to pay 70+ points per Sogarat model?
    Current costs are pretty adjusted for their profiles. Keep in mind other units wielding similar high caliber weapons are either Lo Tech , have 4-2 MOV and/or the HeavyWeight tag, no Lt option and can't normally link. Sogarats suffer none of those and are inmune to isolation. They feel quite right for their cost honestly.
     
  20. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

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    If a Sogarat looked like Achillies 2 I would, but they don't.

    Sogarats are supposed to be the pinnacle of purposeful violence made manifest through evolution, the aspirations of an entire species devoted to war, and their job on the table.....sit there and soak bullets for a sixth of your army points and a third of your SWC each. Makes perfect sense.
     
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