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Can Someone explain to me why Suryats are bad?

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by DaRedOne, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Comparing units from different sectorials just seems so pointless unless you take entire lists into account. Does IS have any ARM8 units? MAF does. Does IS have AVA3 AD-combat jump units? MAF does.

    IS and MAF both have weaknesses and strengths. In a vacuum, Wu Ming might be better than Suryats. But at the end of the day both units have different tools to perform different roles. Do Wu Ming have a Haris option? Suryats do.
     
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  2. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    In line responses:

     
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  3. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    Indeed and we're looking at their role in the sectorial, and i'm saying that Suryats are overly expensive in a big pile of expensive will you ever run 3 Rasyat with 5 Suryats? no, you would have to be insane they're 28pts each minimum! But running Wu ming with two Garuda is certainly possible. Does IS have any armour 8 units? No but they do have a psuedo tag which is the only model in the game that can fail all three saves to a missile launcher and still be operational, is more maneuverable, has better weapons and costs less and be in a duo.

    Do wu ming have a harris option? not in that sectorial, but if you want a duo that's no problem and your haris probably wants to be some Zhanying hisen nonsense, just like in an ideal world i'd slide in a Yaogat or kurgat haris next to the suryats.

    Frankly it's unfair to compare any sectorial to IS
     
  4. Reece

    Reece EI Aspect
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    Eh, I guess we just value things differently. ;)

    On the plus side, our lists won't likely look the same. So disagreement is good .;)
     
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  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    IS can only field one Garuda. A Wu Ming core and one Garuda is only 1SWC and 20 points cheaper than a Suryat haris and three Rasyat at a base point cost of 196pts+1SWC. It's not a pain train, but it's a combo IS can't replicate.

    If IS have a Kuang Shi core they can only have a Wu Ming duo. MAF can have a Hungries core and a Suryat haris. I'm not saying which is better because frankly there are so many factors that come into play in Infinity. What I am saying is, there is no clear answer to whether Suryats cost too much in MAF. Let alone compared to another factions units.

    Countering the Suryat haris with a Hsien+Zhanying doesn't work imo. They have different advantages. The IS haris is more fragile than the MAF haris but of course the Hsien is great to spend orders on. So in a vacuum, on paper, if we only discuss both haris' active turn shooting the Suryats lose. But from another perspective, the Suryats are tougher to remove. Compare the Kornak+Raktorak+Suryat haris and things change yet again.

    The Morat rule costs points and may seem like a waste if players refuse to play into those advantages by not spending the Lt order. The same way using a Su Jian to cover your DZ would be a waste. Why pay points for mobility/Morat and refuse to use it?

    MAF has issues, but I don't think Suryat's are one of them.
     
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  6. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I have noticed way before that the vulkan shotgun costs much more than the boarding shotgun and I'm inclined to agree with that. The 7 extra points between the Wu Ming and the Suryat cover: Extra BTS, Fire Ammo and the Morat rule. A bit too much, perhaps, but I don't see it unreasonable that they cost more.

    Would I like it if suryats cost 1-2 points less all across the board? Yes, of course.

    But the more I look at them the less I think they are overcosted per se. It's not like the Raicho or the Sogs (Even though I use these guys a lot, and they seldom dissapoint) or even the vanguards where I do feel they're paying a bit too much for what they have, with the Suryats I really think it's worth it. Could be better, yes, but they're not in a bad spot.


    As for the combi-rifle+heavy flamethrower Raktorak: I prefer him. Bigass flame template is good, and being able to go into supression fire is great too.
     
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  7. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Some of the arguments being posed in this thread are really freaking weird... Like, AVA 3 Rasyats - lol.
     
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  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    What argument do you think was being made by pointing out Rasyats are AVA3?
     
  9. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Kind of... a bad one? :P 84pts (minimum) sunk into 3 order hungry models that are slow and lack any skills to make them specialists in a Sectorial that is already dominated by expensive models that are similarly lacking in flexible specialist options...

    This on the back of a discussion about running links of a unit that also are not Specialists and, at best, can field a single Specialist Operative in their midst. But hey, this is just my opinion.
     
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    An opinion based on a misunderstanding of the point being made. I gave examples of how a sectorial is greater than the sum of it's parts. Games are played using a combination of those parts, not single units or profiles. I did not say which combinations are good, let alone give an example of one, because they depend on many factors.

    I stated facts about list composition. I didn't make an argument about the validity of a specific number of Rasyats plus Suryats.
     
  11. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    I don't remember seeing Raicho fielded EVER, and it's been the target of many a complaint because it's bland and underperforming (like most standard TAGs and until the pilot update, but still).
    Sure, we can compare it to ISS' Su Jian and it's definitely gonna be a striking contrast in usefulness, but I'm afraid it won't be in Raicho's favor.

    AVA 3 AD troops costing 28pt for the cheapest option without Mimetism, Dogged or any other survival skill, without a specialist option? Please enlighten me why would people want to run 3 of those at the same time? The possibility to make such a gimmick list maybe once a few years doesn't sound very enticing. And I'd gladly switch to ISS' mimetic MOV 6-4 Garuda.
     
  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the gauntlet has been thrown down now.

    I'm fairly certain I could make this list below work. I originally had a short range Suryat haris and Preta's instead of Gaki's designed to push up the table to cover the Raktorak. But with three Rasyats needing orders to remove threats I prefer them in a support role. Rasyat's don't have Mimetism or Dogged but they can disrupt MSV, cause problems in melee, and still shoot when the need arises. There are plenty of orders to go around. Two 6-4MOV specialists can cover good ground with the Raktorak as a backup option.

    The list can certainly use some tweaking depending on mission, but i like the feel of it.

    [​IMG] Morat Aggression Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] RAKTORAK Combi Rifle + Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] SURYAT Lieutenant HMG + TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 45)
    [​IMG] SURYAT Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 39)
    [​IMG] RASYAT Spitfire, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] RASYAT Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 28)
    [​IMG] OZNAT Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4)
    [​IMG] GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4)
    [​IMG] GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4)
    [​IMG] GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] RASYAT Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 28)
    [​IMG] MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] E-DRONE Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 28)
    [​IMG] IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  13. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Well, the whole point of the thread is exactly discussing how to use that link to its maximum potential. If you don't like it, the army offers a lot of different tools for you to use in its place, but that's not the point of this discussion.

    Many of us do agree the link is usable, and even then not everyone agrees on how to best use it, so different opinions are welcome, yes.

    You sound a lot like one of my friends who routinely states he hates tags, and who can't use a Gorgos, Marut or Maghariba in any list without getting absolutely pissed off at it. He's the same guy who said a TAG can't survive past turn 3 despite failing to kill my Raizot at least 2 times in recent games :D

    Again, different opinions. I can run a Raizot and still have 15 orders in the list. It works, kicks a lot of ass and if/when it goes down I'm still left with a few more attack pieces that can run the board and cap objectives, so even though I think it is slightly more costly than it should, I actually like it.

    It is the same thing with the Suryat link. I could probably run the following:

    [​IMG] Morat Aggression Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] KORNAK Lieutenant Mk12, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 41)
    [​IMG] RAKTORAK Combi Rifle + Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] SURYAT Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 39)
    [​IMG] SURYAT HMG + TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 45)
    [​IMG] SURYAT MULTI Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 41)
    [​IMG] MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] MORAT Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    [​IMG] ZERAT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] Q-DRONE HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
    [​IMG] KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)

    5.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    In a serious game and do well enough with it, but that's because I like top heavy armies. One of the reasons I've enjoyed playing MAF so much recently is that with all the fireteam options they are suprisingly more flexible than people give them credit for.
     
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  14. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    I've had plentiful positive experiences with the Raicho, just not generally in MAF, I find generic where you can sprinkle in some shrouded skirmishers to protect your investment does better, I once paired one with an anathematic in a horrible bodge of a list but that was certainly fun.

    But if you're playing MAF you're here for the links rather than increased AVA or your access to dirty tricks (although I have used two Rasyat before now)

    As to lists with Suryats with some legs:
    [​IMG] Boing boing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] RODOK Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    [​IMG] RODOK HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] RODOK Hacker (EI Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] RODOK Combi Rifle, 2 Light Shotguns / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    [​IMG] RODOK Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] KORNAK Lieutenant Mk12, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 41)
    [​IMG] SURYAT Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 39)
    [​IMG] RAKTORAK Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] Bit Hacker (UPGRADE: Expel) Submachine Gun + Pitcher, Deployable Repeater + KISS! / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] KISS! Adhesive Launcher / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
    6 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
    Not overly keen on only having 12 orders but Rodoks add a bit of unexpected pzazz while the kornak harris has a more HQ, bodyguard and monkey butler feel for some top quality order efficiency and both links pack something to make opponents think twice. Bits pitcher allows the Rodok hacker to aim for tags while she deters other hackers, the Datz group is just for smoke screen, minesweeping, board edge duty and camo hunting.
     
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  15. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    My point was that Suryats, at best, bring 1 specialist. So bridging the discussion over to spamming AVA3 of another moderately expensive troop, that has NO specialist options, isn't really viable - and so, therefore, was a silly argument to be trying to make.
     
  16. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    [​IMG]

    I mean I'm just sayin' If he was a mobile brigada he'd have crit his dodge and cost less.

    PHY 14+ Now!
     
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  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I was there when that happened

    When the Suryat failed to dodge, I said "well hey, at least now you can post that on the forum and say if he was a Mobile Brigada he'd have critted" :D
     
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  18. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    For anybody wondering by the way, there was nothing left to medic
     
  19. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    *Casts thread ressurection*

    So when I was picking up cold front I asked Bostria wht suryats were pH 13. When they should be 14/15 and got the reply of "that makes fluff sense, that'll probably change".
     
  20. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Oh, that's pretty great. It's a shame it does kinda confirm CB doesn't pay that much attention to aliens :/

    Looking forward to Suryat's update sometime next year :D