Is this generalisable to other skills with NFB and no 'sustain' effects? Ie White Noise? It would allow multiple White Noise zones at once (but would still screw a Custodiers ODD, see below).
Even though the skill doesn't require sustaining, he's still benefit from the effects of the skill which is all that's requires to trigger NFB. I've always read that FAQ as 'you can't optional choose not to benefit from the skill, you continue benefiting from the skill until the cancellation clause is met'. Otherwise it's literally just the fact Cybermask is Supportware that prevents Surprise Shot from stacking with ODD and a Camo Marker with ODD would be possible.... Or, more usefully, ODD to work with a White Noise zone on the table (which isn't the way it's understood).
I guess that interpreting it as "Obligatory" is one way to interpret the "Optional" trait of (TO) Camouflage ;) (Btw, level 1 (Mimetism) of that skill is the only one that is Obligatory.)
Once you choose (the Optional part) to initiate the Camo state you continue to benefit from that state until its cancellation clauses are met. You are explicitly (from the recent FAQ) not allowed to Optionally choose to use another skill to break the state via manipulating NFB. You cannot benefit from Camo and TO in the same order. You cannot claim your using TO to break Camo. So the question is whether starting an order as a marker counts as benefiting from the that state: we know from the Cybermask FAQ that it does. Therefore, you cannot benefit from TO mods in the same order you are in a Camo state.
You're definitely benefitting from the state, but the state does not have NFB. Cybermask is (I believe) different because the Program has NFB and as soon as the Program stops the state turns off.
So, you're saying that the state isn't an effect of the Camo skill? Basically I'm drawing this logic: 1. The state is an effect of Camo 2. You're benefiting from the state 3. Therefore you are benefiting from Camo 4. Ergo you can't also benefit from TO It's the same logic that applies to White Noise (program) 1. The Zone is an effect of the the Program 2. The Zone being on the table means the hacker is benefiting from the state 3. Therefore the hacker is benefiting from the program 4. Ergo a Custodier cannot also benefit from ODD
White Noise has a different kind of line "the effects of this program persists until", and NFB is certainly an effect of it.
Camo doesn't need that line because the benefits of the skill persist until cancelled. We know that with certainty because of the FAQ: the only way to stop receiving the benefits is to fulfil a cancellation clause. You don't need to continue using the skill to get cruelled by NFB, you simply need to continue benefiting from the skill. Basically I see this as the key question: If you are in a state are you still benefiting from the special skill that allowed you to enter that state? I can't see how the answer is anything other than 'yes'
That means you're applying different logic to the two situations. As to your question: that depends on if you've still got that skill active. However, you may want to look at Holoprojector and Decoy instead of White Noise.
I don't see the difference in logic. Are you benefiting from the skill? If yes the NFB applies. This is consistent across all uses as far as I can tell. Why does whether you are benefiting depend on whether the skill is active or not? If the state is a benefit of the skill then while the state is active you continue to benefit from the skill. I don't see your point re: Holo and Decoys. Can you please explain.
My point is that trying to stake the claim with White Noise is futile because the skill is constructed differently, doesn't cause a separate state, and that even you need to apply a different logic. Holoprojector and Decoy, however, both enables a state which doesn't as far as I can read rely on their respective skills being constantly active, effectively the skills functions identically to Camouflage as far as cancellation logic and activation logic is concerned, yet we have Holo3 which removes NFB and the relationship between their NFB and their state is unclear and inconsistent with how it has been told to handle with Camouflage. So that's probably the best skills you can use to support your claim, in my opinion. So effectively Holo's and Camo's NFB function different "because CB said so on the forums" which is bad design.
I don't see how Holo is different: 1. The state is an effect of Holo 2 2. You're benefiting from the state 3. Therefore you are benefiting from Holo 2 4. Ergo you can't also benefit from Mimmetism The same logic holds, it's not reliant on White Noise. I just use White Noise to illustrate the logic. Holo 3 specifically has NFB to avoid that situation. Holo also states that it can be used in conjunction with Holo 2, otherwise you would not be able to.
I'm just saying that Holo is probably your best bet at supporting your argument. White Noise isn't a state, the zone doesn't have a right to exist outside the effects of the program and in the effects of the program is the NFB label. Game states can naturally exist outside of a governing skill, and in fact it is not the Ch: Camouflage skill you activate, but a generic skill derived from the state itself since Ch: Camouflage is a passive skill that you can't declare (similar to how Liuetenant is a passive skill you can't declare the use of or how a Warcor can't spend a Short Skill to activate Journalist lvl 1)
